I no longer think religion is essential for morality

I don’t see those as being radically different from the points I raised. He didn’t have a life without tragedy. That doesn’t mean he was doomed to be a mass murderer.

That’s the whole thing your argument seems to be based on, a bald idea that something external must have caused it. I guess we’ve both made ourselves clear on this point so I don’t think I’ll continue any more on it, but maybe address a few other points.

? So I’m not. I’m pointing out that it has to be considered a factor in the development of anti-Semitism, but I didn’t say it’s the only or even the main factor. For example, gypsies have also been discriminated against in Europe without such motivations.

Sure there are. There’s an entire history of humanistic thought separate from Christianity. Informed? Sure. That’s not the end of the story though.

Where did you answer the question, where does ordinary malevolence end and the evil spirit’s malevolence begin?

But you have here, and thanks. I’ll leave it there (again, as I think we’ve both made ourselves clear), but I reject the idea that you have any kind of monopoly on humility.

Edit: I do have one other thought though. If Satan is the source of all malevolence as you say, what makes you think he’s especially needed to explain extreme malevolence? What’s the difference between that and a scenario where people are naturally malevolent to some degree, and occasionally exhibit extreme malevolence on our own? It seems to me you’re starting with the preconception that Satan exists here. Put another way, do we need Satan to explain the existence of any malevolence among people?

I could say this: Malevolence occurs naturally in humans (and in our closest mammalian relatives.) It only grows to outright evil when perpetrators of evil ignore the negative consequences of their actions, however they rationalize it, and allow their hearts to grow progressively harder, giving them an increasing potential to do worse actions.

@Richard_Wright1 and @John_Dalton

What about James 1:13-15?
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

I don’t need Satan to mess up. I’m not saying there is no Devil; but James had interesting insight here.

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I don’t think there is one, but I’m not saying that either, actually. If there is, he might well have made a Hitler (though I’d wonder why God let it happen). I just don’t think Satan is necessary to explain the known history in question, and Richard seems to think he is.

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I agree. I honestly think, as GK Chesterton said, that I can be a Hitler–given the right circumstances. There, but for the grace of God, go I.

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Wow, a Hitler, I don’t know. But ordinary German citizens participated in a lot of crimes, which is indeed sobering.

It does seem a leap to go from participant to instigator, but I agree with both you and Randy that we have a capacity for evil.

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I think this is similar to the debate about the degree to which God micromanages (or doesn’t) the events in the world. While I don’t believe God simply wound up the world and walked away, I also can’t say for sure how much control he exerts over the little details of our lives. As with evil – I believe we all have a sinful nature that allows us to do some pretty terrible things as Randy pointed out (even most of Hitler’s murdering was actually carried out by people other than him) – but I do believe there’s a demonic realm as well – without attributing every little wrong thing I do to the devil or living life as if there’s a demon behind every corner. How much is the devil and how much is simply us? (or does it all go back to the devil’s original temptation?) I’m not sure it’s possible to tell where the line is in many situations.

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good point. I should apologize and clarify-Chesterton lived before Hitler, but I paraphrased his quote in Father Brown where he felt that he could be the worst possible person as he had that potential.

thanks.

@John_Dalton, @Laura

Hello Randy,

“For God cannot be tempted by evil”. So there is evil out there which can’t tempt God, but can tempt us. Unrepentant people, “are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed”. The enticing and dragging agent is understood to be the devil and/or his agents. But you’re right, we are all responsible for our sins and can’t, “blame the devil”.

Hello Elle,

I was pondering the extent of Satan’s influence in our lives as well. It depends on what we mean by, “wrong”. Is Satan behind it when I take a wrong turn or make a mistake at work? Probably not. I think Satan is behind when we veer off-course from following Jesus, or do something that he wouldn’t want us to do, meaning sin. If there is a demonic element, it just makes sense it would take every opportunity to drag as away from Christ, starting small and working it up to, “full-blown” and, “death”, as in James 1:15.

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@John_Dalton

Hello T,

So, you feel there is a rational explanation for the holocaust. I’m guessing the girl in the gas chamber would disagree.

[The following assumes that you mis-matched responses to different parts of my post]

Richard_Wright1:

This is way off base. If there is a God who communicated an objective morality, then this god obviously designed the universe to produce humans, and his morality designed for his humans.

I don’t see why a morality for humans, designed by an omniscient God, would have to be subjective.

You’re conflating 2 massively different scenarios. In the OT, an omnipotent and omniscient god gave an order for the survival of the Isrealites, and in the other, humans, through misinterpreting scripture, committ atrocities. The question should really be is there anything in the NT that would justify any violence, and the opposite is the case.

It’s really a difference in worldviews. One acknowledges that this world/universe which displays intelligence, love, good, etc. must have been created by a higher power. The other feels we are the result of a happy accident, which betrays know science, and therefore we can’t logically call anything, “good”, or “evil”, though we all believe in it. To your point, again it comes down to the existence of god or not, because if there is then there is good outside of human experience.

And or course neither myself nor anyone here has claimed that. Most here came to the faith though Jesus, who gave his life so people could be saved. He taught there are no favorites, uplifted woman (centuries ahead of his time), taught against lust, greed, selfishness, to turn the other cheek, to forgive, etc. He was a Jew who’s nation existed in a violent, warring world and was under attack from the start. It seems to you that violence in any context is wrong, so that Harry Truman was, “immoral” for dropping the bombs.

Do you think Jesus was immoral? If he was god, then he could have ended all human suffering, which in your view makes him immoral if he didn’t.

You have faith that the physical produced this universe. I know because you recently were preaching to another poster the fallacious, “quantum vacuum” explanation for the universe until I rightly corrected you that a quantum vacuum is something. You then told another poster, who correctly told you that nothing can come from nothing that that idea was an intuition, and intuitions can be wrong. But it’s more than an intuition, it’s what we know of the physical, so it’s by faith you hold out for a physical explanation.

Everyone has faith in something, admit the truth to yourself for a wise man once said, “the truth will set you free”. :slight_smile:

I never said that, and I don’t appreciate those words being placed in my mouth. This is the comment I was responding to:

“Well please enlighten us with your imagination as to how a man with a history of no major tragedies and was not hurt by Jews in any way decided to exterminate them from Europe, killing million of children and talented men who could of helped with his upcoming war.”

I was disputing the claim that Hitler had no major tragedies in his life. WW I was a major part of his life. I’m not saying that justified his actions, but it was certainly a factor.

If you design a morality so that it fits the subjective views of humans, then it is a subjective morality. An objective morality would make no reference to humans, just as the objective size of the Moon is not based on the views of humans.

What I don’t understand is why an omnipotent and omniscient deity would have to kill innocent children in order for another group of people to survive.

It’s much simpler than that. If humans didn’t exist, how would you determine that the universe was good?

On a different level, is malaria good? What about cancer? Children die of leukemia, is that good?

If Harry Truman could have used his omnipotent powers to stop WW II and didn’t, and instead dropped nuclear bombs on Japan, then yes, that would be immoral.

No, I really don’t. I don’t know how this universe started.

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I just read today (Harper’s Index) that 65% of those “unaffiliated with a religion” think that the U.S. has a responsibility to be accepting of refugees. Only 25% of white evangelicals do.

You know it does not bode well for established “Christianity” when there are fewer [white] evangelicals following Jesus’ teachings than secular folks who are. At least Christians in this nation have somebody they can largely look up to!

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Was just listening to an interview on public radio with a retired american spy (?) commenting on what Russia has been up to in working to divide countries, Brexit and pushing to take France out of NATO. He mentioned that since Putin came to power he has made a concerted effort to portray his country as pro-Christian and has helped to sow the conservative Christian political movement. Those KGB guys are good at what they do. Pushing resentment against refugees is another front.

This may be too political for this forum. It won’t hurt my feelings to have it removed if so … (as long as it isn’t at Putin’s bidding). :wink:

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If it is, yours and my posts will be removed together. But we’ll be in good company. A certain man a couple thousand years ago got way too political (in all the wrong ways) for everybody’s comfort.

But yes … you’re right. There is the matter of the specific and stated purpose of this forum, so we can’t go too far down this rabbit trail.

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That’s really sad, but it doesn’t surprise me, I don’t think most of, “Evangelical” Christianity, at least in this country, is authentic Christianity (if anyone wants to know why I think that, feel free to send me a PM). It seems like evangelicals and fundamentalists here are more concerned with politics than trying their hardest to be like Jesus.

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Let alone holding their candidates to account accordingly.

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Hello T,

I apologize for putting words in your mouth. Maybe we can all agree that there is no rational explanation for the holocaust, or for evil in general.

I can’t remember how this thought started, but the god of the bible is a moral God with an objective morality, and humans are to learn from Him right and wrong. Morality, at least in the bible, isn’t specifically designed for humans.

That is a hard question, I’m not going to deny that. I think there are 3 explanations for why the children had to die. One, they surely would have been mistreated by the Isrealites. Two, some of them anyway, could have infected the Isrealites with their pagan religions as an adult could have. Three, it may have simply been impossible for the Isrealites to care for thousands of orphans. And let’s not forget that these nations were a sickly violent group who practiced, among other things, child sacrifice (punishing them for their sin was actually on of the reasons they were wiped out according to Genesis 15:16). They were constantly at war with one another and getting quick run-though, as violent as it was, was actually a lot better than what they would have gotten from the other Canaanite kingdoms. In the end it was a time of war and hard decisions had to have been made.

God clearly said that the universe is good.

Another Dawkins/Hitchenseseque canard. Of course they are not good. God made a good world, not a perfect world. It wasn’t designed to be perfect, it was designed to be a test for humans, which it does rather well. Of course there is perfect existence in heaven for those who pass the test.

You might as well say, “If God doesn’t stop every act of evil then He is immoral” - which is another Dawkinsesque logical fallacy. I guess he didn’t stop and consider what would be the consequences if God did that. Then you might say, “Well, God allowed bad and evil in the world so, he is immoral”. Well, we create a lot of evil through our choices, and God did send Jesus to die to wake us up, and give us a chance for immortality. But then again, he also said, “few” would accept him and he was right, as usual.

Your past statements have shown that, though you don’t have a, “belief” in what started the universe, we can see where your faith is. Which just makes sense, an atheist can’t, “know” what started the universe, but if there is no supernatural the only other option is natural.

There are many rational explanations for what Hitler did. There are many studies on human psychology that reveal how humans can go down this road. What there is a lack of is a rational justification for Hitler’s actions.

Then I will state that the God of the Bible is an immoral God at times, and the Bible describes a subjective morality. It seems that we are on equal ground if bare assertions are the way ideas are to be established.

The Chosen People wandered the desert for many decades, and God provided them food from heaven in the form of manna. The Chosen People also made a pagan idol without any outside interference, so it can’t be that either. God also ordered His people to commit genocide on at least one occasion, including the slaughter of children and women, so I don’t see how God is more moral than those who practice child sacrifice (if that actually happened in the first place).

I will agree that it is a difficult problem to tackle. The problem that I have is in assuming that whatever God commands is moral because that leads us down a very scary path where we shut off our own sense of morality in the name of obedience.

That seems to be a rather circular argument.

So the world is good as long as we ignore all of the not good things?

But we are talking about the direct actions of God, not what he allows us to do. If Truman had unlimited power and could have ended WW II without any bloodshed at all, but instead chose to drop two nuclear bombs killing hundreds of thousands of people, would that be moral? Of course not.

In the case of the Chosen People, God could have created a force field around them and safely allowed them to move out into the desert without anyone harming them, so why not do it?

I also take the position that the supernatural could exist, but I have yet to see evidence that it does which is why I don’t have a belief in the supernatural. I think you may have prejudged what my beliefs are.

I suggest that you underestimate the power of human rationality here. While you and I may have trouble seeing or accepting any rational justifications for the Nazis, they certainly didn’t. (At least I’m pretty sure they didn’t go around claiming that what they were doing was irrational, and unless you are willing to posit that all the Germans so-inclined to those actions then were all less intelligent than we are now - then I don’t see how a case for their irrationality can be built).

Many of us, even now, have no problem providing perfectly rational logic for why we were justified to drop atomic bombs on cities (as well as firebombing Tokyo, Dresden, …). So – no – I don’t buy for a moment the notion that rationality rescues us from finding our way to (or being driven toward) the most despicably evil things that can possibly be done (often only recognized as evil by others later, if not by ourselves in the moment.)

Edited.

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Being on an Anne Lamott kick here lately … I have to include here one of her many juicy quotes [which I suggest is deeply related to what I wrote above]:

You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.

[which Anne, in turn attributes to ‘her priest friend, Tom’].

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