How do we deal with very scary claims about the origins of Monotheism and God?

I do not. Nor do I think the revealed religion of the ancient Hebrews did either.

So the critical scholar’s evolutionary view of the divine council would not include your view

That particular view of the origins of Yahweh’s divine counsel with Yahweh under a different deity named ‘lyon would not include me. The general arguments and descriptions for why they classify ancient Israel as henotheistic in general, however, I find often does include me.

I do not understand this assertion Reggie. The Arabic language did not even exist until the early centuries AD (or CE if you prefer).

Best,
Chris

1 Like

Exodus 20:1-3 (NIV2011)
1 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the LORD[YHWH] your God, Who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me."

These words identify YHWH as one god among many, but the only God Whom the Jews were to worship. This I think keeps them from polytheism, but falls under henotheism.

This does not mean that I think the other gods were real, but YHWH introduced God’s people to monotheism in a gradual process. Psalm 82 is a unique indication of henotheism in Judaism, not the normative understanding of Judaism. I think that it is likely that it was used to explain to non-Jews why Jews believe that YHWH is the One God (Elohim.)

If believing that the gods worshipped by other nations were, in fact, real entities is henotheism, then given those definitions, I think Paul would similarly fall under henotheism. As would I…

What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons.

1 Like

With the end of henotheism the old gads became demons as Paul said. The difference I would say is that the gods had free will so they could be judged. Demons and angels do not.

Foreign gods were understood as potentially being demons as far back as Deuteronomy 32. This was not a new idea in Paul’s time.

They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods; with abominations they provoked him to anger. They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.

Demons and angels do not have free will? You’ll have to explain that if you don’t mind… that is completely new to me.

1 Like

Having free will means having the ability to think for onese34lf and the ability to change one’s mind. Angels are literally messengers, which means they run errands for God. They do not do anything on their own accord.

Demons, if they had free will should be able to “convert” to good beings, but their is no evidence that any has ever done so. They have no power to do anything, only lie and deceive, which does not require free will.

Interesting view. It contrasts to the idea I had that demons were angels that rebelled against God, with Satan as their chief. I have to admit, I have a very fluid concept of demons, at times feeling that they are the anthropological expression of our own inner evil tendencies, but accepting at times they may be independent agents, as illustrated by Jesus the demons out and their entering the swine. Angels as messengers perhaps I have a more concrete idea, with them being material manifestations of God’s will, but it is still a mystery to me as to their exact nature.

1 Like

Maybe we should all have a book club on that new Walton book he mentioned in the podcast.

5 Likes

This looks to be right in your wheelhouse, Christy.

Another path is possible. What if references to demons in the Bible are similar to references about the shape and structure of the cosmos representing the beliefs familiar to the ancient audience but used only as a framework for teaching about the plans and purposes of God? This approach is here worked out through detailed examination of hermeneutical method, the ancient Near Eastern and Greco-Roman contexts, each of the biblical terms and passages, and the essentials of biblical and systematic theology. Unlike many scholarly treatments of demons, readers will not find an assessment of the metaphysical realities. Instead they will be introduced to a hermeneutical, exegetical, and theological feast regarding what the Bible, understood in its ancient context, teaches.

  • From the Amazon description.
2 Likes

Dear Roger,
The enlightened Greeks depicted Satan as Poseidon, the ruler of the bitter sea of fallen angels. Referring back to the waters under the firmament (Gen 1:6). Using the same imagery, they depicted Aphrodite emerging from the bitter sea. The fallen mate to Gabriel who stood by Lucifer, the whore of Babylon (Ezekiel 23), emerged from the realm of Satan.


The enlightened Greeks named their capital city after the younger sister, Athena. She too turned away from Satan and started her journey back to God. They saw them both as heroes in the battle against Satan, and examples for everyone to follow.
You remember that it was Justinian who made the belief in the restoration of the demons anathema, providing evidence that this belief existed in early Christianity.
Best Wishes, Shawn

I’ll definitely look at that on Kindle, as the print version is a bit pricey.

@Daniel_Fisher and Phil,

The Bile says that humans, unlike angels. are created in the Image of God. In my understanding an important aspect of the Image of God is free will, the ability to make decisions for oneself, although we often do not use this ability.

Psalm 8:4-5 (NIV2011)
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?
5 You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor.

In Psalm 8:5 the psalmist David says that YHWH created humans a little lower than Elohim in the Hebrew Bible, which is the usual word for God. In the Greek Bible (LXX) the translation is angels as it is here. However the translation “a little lower than God” makes more sense because it is consistent with the rest of the OT and a little lower than God means the same as made in the Image of God.

Humans are created in the Image of God with the ability to think, to act, and to love, a little less than God so we can be God’s Viceroy. See my essay, God and Freedom on Academia.edu.
.

This is fallacious. The Bible describes humans as being in the image of God. It does not positively claim that angels are not the image of god, unless you want to point me to a passage I am missing? Essentially, the Bible simply does not describe the creation of angels in any great detail, and does not speak to whether they were or were not also made in some manner imago dei. It is fallacious to claim evidence of absence based on absence of evidence.

Further, I cannot follow the logic in the idea that, because some angels freely chose never to rebel against God, while some angels freely chose to so rebel, that they do not have free will. Further, the fact that God has seemingly not offered a path to redemption to those fallen angels has no logical bearing on whether they currently do, or ever did, have free will.

God has not offered me the ability to fly, so that is one choice I cannot make, granted. It does not follow from this that I cannot make free choices in the other areas wherein I have the ability to make real choices.

1 Like

Hebrew chapters 1&2 address this question to say that angels are servants not sons, not to sit at his right hand, not creating the world for them.

Hebrew2: 6“What is man that thou art mindful of him,
or the son of man, that thou carest for him?
7 Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels,
thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

Many have thought that this putting everything (of creation) in subjection to man is the very meaning being created in God’s image. We are like God in our creative abilities and our ability to see the universe down to the smallest particle and the farthest galaxy, and the ability to seek an understanding of them. To be sure God made the angels knowledgeable and powerful, but to us he gave us the ability to become more with growth and learning so that we would surpass the angels in an eternal relationship of life where there is no end to what we can receive and no end to what God can give – that is the eternal relationship is the ultimate meaning of being created in the image of God. The angels are simply what God made them to be and will never be any more than that.

If God wanted us to fly He would have given us wings? God gave us the ability to become more through growth and learning. By that he gave us everything including the ability to learn how to fly.

@Reggie_O_Donoghue

Really? That is what you are leading with?

Yah is a double play on words: bread and breath.

Yah-avah may very well be a reference to a dual gendered godhead.

Keep going Joy. Hold on no matter how the realization of cultural evolution develops. And it can’t stop now.

Many of us have been there, are with you. Released from the comforting bondage of ignorance to the terrifying freedom of true ignorance.

There is one historical, forensic, documented, scientific fact remaining. The early Church, starting from a decade after the time of the story it is reacting to, was real and up and running and continues to this day. The early letters of Paul are real. Dwell on that.

And dwell on the QUALITY of the story Joy. The QUALITY, the divine intelligence in the Pericope Adulterae even though no one knows where it came from, late. The Holy Spirit has the lightest of touches. The quality abounds, from Cana to render unto Caesar and Eloi eloi, lama sabachthani and beyond.

Do you want it to be true? It can be.

1 Like

To me it’s not scary at all.

I believe that by the time a species arose, such as only ours, that could reason with spirituality and God reached out to them that there was other spiritual beings in existence.

The Bible refers to different angels as the Prince of this or that person or nation. As conflict arose created by enochian angels and “satanic” angels people would simply had a bad prince over them. They would praise their prince. As time went on their prince was called their God and some were better than others and so they begin to pray to many. They also begin to make up their own and coincidences would draw them in.

As time went God reached out to his creation and called remnants back to him such as with Abraham and Moses. God let them know he was the one true God. The God of gods. The creator of the gods. Not just simply the most powerful one. They saw his power and feared and loved him.