Evolutionary Creationists should distance themselves more clearly from deism

[quote=“Eddie, post:350, topic:18370”]
And speculations from a long-retired biologist like Dawkins (who was never a great molecular biologist even in his prime) hardly “settle” the question.[/quote]
Speculations don’t but the evidence does. Maybe you should focus more on evidence and less on hearsay.

But then there’s the evidence. You should check it out.

But are you familiar with the evidence?

[quote]None of them come close to what I would call a detailed and rigorous explanation. Dawkins’s explanation in The Blind Watchmaker wasn’t an explanation, but an impressionistic sketch, based on “general plausibility.”
[/quote]That book is for laypeople, so I don’t think that reading it entitles you to claim that you are familiar with “the typical explanations.”

Have you read any of the primary literature on eye evolution? Like the evidence from the crystallins?

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So between the heavenly bodies there is an aether, not a vacuum; and the fundamental elements are not quarks, but earth, wind, fire, and water. Got it.

Thank you for pointing out the fundamental advantages of Aristotelian science over the modern version.:wink:

BTW, your rhetoric about science strikes me as odd. Science does not disallow anything. However, there is a domain of questions that can be answered by the scientific method. That domain is the limit that modern science sets on itself. Is this a different view of science than Aristotle’s? Yes, of course. But that is for the better. Circumscribing the domain of science keeps it humble. From the Christian viewpoint, the circumscribed domain allows it to be a servant to the Lord God, and not a false god.

There are many other questions outside the scientific domain which are very much worth our best efforts. These are the most important questions, questions about beauty, and love, and purpose. You love to ponder those questions, Eddie, and I do too. I imagine anyone who would come to a forum sponsored by a Christian organization would have a predilection for those kinds of questions.

So yes, it is good to ponder the ultimate origin of life. I affirm that a scientific explanation of that ultimate origin will never be available, because the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the creator of the universe and of life. Once the quantum wave functions at the Big Bang have been described and the RNA world has been explained[1], humanity will have a better scientific understanding of origins. However, we won’t know anything more about their ultimate origins and purpose than the Psalmist, who proclaimed:

The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment;
    he stretches out the heavens like a tent
    and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters.
He makes the clouds his chariot
    and rides on the wings of the wind.
He makes winds his messengers,
    flames of fire his servants.
He set the earth on its foundations;
    it can never be moved.

And if we’re not careful, we may know less. It would be a terrible trade to gain the whole scientific world but lose our souls. I am convinced that an important way to avoid that terrible mistake is to respect the limits of scientific inquiry. Not to respect those limits is to go the way of Dawkins and Stephen Meyer.

And with that, I echo your wishes of a merry Christmas and a healthful, joyful new year,
Chris Falter

[1] Of course, scientists may discover even better scientific explanations than the ones we currently have. In addition, there are some questions that are theoretically possible for scientific examination but may be intractable in practice. Among these are the origin of the first cell and the location of my other purple sock.

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Not sure what you mean by that, Jon. Nature has published plenty of articles by Christian scientists who (elsewhere) affirm God’s role as creator and sustainer of the universe and life.

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I was assuming the same terms and conditions as for your imaginary closet Aristotelian: presumably Astrophysics Journal wouldn’t mind publishing his stuff, provided he kept his Aristotelian views to philosophical journals and stuck to “the mechanical philosophy” in his scientific articles.

Either journal might conceivably, I suppose, run a “topical feature” on Evolutionary Creation or Neo-Aristotelianism, but not as an overt position in a scientific article (this year saw the retraction of a Chinese article simply because the translation of a neutral Chinese expression came across as possibly theistic).

My point was quite simple - science has particular and limited working parameters (as in methodological naturalism) that are useful but, because they impose limitations, mean that science cannot give a complete account of the phenomena if evolutionary creation is true (or even if the lesser claim of Aristotelian teleology is true) … if that were not the case, and scientific explanations were exhaustive, then “theistic evolution” would have no real meaning, because it would add nothing of substance to “a-theistic” evolution.

There we are - a one paragraph analogy expanded to a three paragraph explanation!

@Jon_Garvey

I can imagine a planet where the evolutionary steps might be completely different, much simpler, and having no hint that there was an Intelligence at work.

Life Forms on that planet might still have a Holy Book, and find evidence in the Holy Book that God led the very simple evolution on their planet.

I’m not saying any of this applies to Earth. I’m just pointing out how easy it is to parse away metaphysics from naturalism… or to bring it in as an amplification above and outside of naturalism.

George - by “hint” do you mean something like “evidential hint”? Because I’m talking about Evolutionary Creation, the view that has already come to the conclusion that evolution is God’s work, by whatever means that conclusion was reached, and then has to say what that belief actually means.

I assume as ECs we hold that God is at least as universal as the laws of physics, so a human EC encountering your planet would, presumably, take it for granted that God created that evolutionary system too - and if I understand your meaning, the aliens with their own Bible could reach the same conclusion by exactly the same faith.

On the other hand, any life-forms that had a holy book would scarcely have a less mysterious biosphere to explain than we do: books, and the ability to read them, are surely an indicator that there is a Creator in itself, regardless of what those books say.

But if one holds “Evolutionary Creation”, then it has to mean something that “materialistic science” does not mean, or at least it does if that science excludes non-material causes as a matter of methodology. What is it that is actually created, as opposed to not-created in the materialistic view?

Or closer to my point to Chris, what does the materialistic account fail to explain, or fail to even try to explain? I’ve suggested a few things in this thread and elsewhere: it doesn’t explain inherent teleology. It does not explain final causation. It does not explain original causation - but neither does it fully explain why subsequent causes took the particular contingent paths they did. It does not explain what “chance” is (how can it, if “random” means “of unknown cause”?).

Aquinas (interpreting Aristotle, to bring him back in) was correct in saying that all those questions remain unanswered in even the simplest scientific questions (far simpler than your planet). Such questions don’t even belong to science - which is why I say that Evolutionary Creation should use the science merely as the place it starts, and address the questions that science isn’t addressing.

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I think that’s a great paragraph!

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Hi Jon,

I agree completely with you.

I would only add one thing: it is not productive to expect people who are talking about science to continually add philosophical disclaimers about completeness, any more than we would expect people who are talking about the weather. We don’t hear these kinds of conversations at the bus station:

Scientist [randomly, to a bystander]: It rained a lot yesterday.

Philosophy professor [stepping in between the scientist and the bystander]: Was the rain ordained and determined by God from all eternity?

Scientist: I guess so. I mean, God designed the universe in such a way that it would rain on a planet like ours.

Philosophy professor: No, that won’t do! I believe that God determined from all eternity where and when every drop would fall, to the exact micron and millisecond. Come on, man, no one will respect you if you don’t make your convictions clear!

Scientist: Well, there seems to be a lot of controversy among theologians about the extent to which God controls every single outcome. But of course, I’m sure He controls everything that needs to be controlled.

Philosophy professor: That’s a tautology! How do you expect this chap over here to trust what you have to say about the rain if you won’t speak clearly?

But somehow, Jon, we seem to be having this discussion many times a day, every day, on this forum. It’s both puzzling and tiring.

Merry Christmas and a wonderful new year to you on th’other side of the pond,
Chris Falter

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Hello Eddie,

You think that the answers you arrive at are not related to the questions you ask and how you prioritize them? Eddie, you are contributing to my holiday mirth.

What makes you think that completeness of explanation is a goal of natural science? Did I ever claim that? Did anyone at Biologos?

Honestly, Eddie, show me even one post by a Biologos author, or even a Christian commenter on this forum, that the goal of natural science is a complete explanation.

You’re complaining about a problem that doesn’t exist. Relax. Enjoy a nice hot drink by the fireside with your family. Your fears are about Biologos are not based in reality.

Are you saying that philosophers don’t need to make this kind of faith affirmation? Have philosophers solved the mystery of the Trinity and the mystery of God’s involvement with the world while I was putting my Christmas shopping list together?

Well, I’m going to get back to that while you enjoy that nice, hot drink by the fireside. Cheers!

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Wow, @Eddie, maybe the feeling is mutual? Especially when you write flatly bogus assessments like the one below?

Prof. Giberson was invited to lecture by the Vatican, Oxford University, the Harvard Club, and was chosen by John Templeton, Jr (deceased 2015) to found one magazine (Science & Theology) and then run another (Science and Spirit). He has written 10 books, and over 200 articles (technical and popular), published by institutions as varied as Discover Magazine, Quarterly Review of Biology (by U. of Chicago Press), London-based Christian Today, Christian History Magazine, CNN.com, Perspectives on Science & Christian Faith, Salon.com, the neoconservative Weekly Standard and the New York Times.

He has debated face-to-face with Meyer (the founder of the Discovery Institute) as well as its Sr. Fellow West, and even Ken Ham himself. Formerly a Young Earth Creationist, with a long career teaching Physics at an evangelical college, he has been one of the most visible spokespersons in the English-Speaking world on the topic of the purpose of Science in Christianity, and the topic of Evolution specifically.

Maybe your problem is that you haven’t paid enough attention to his writings, lectures or debates. I can’t even begin to imagine what you think you bring to the discussion that Giberson hasn’t already discussed, revised, refuted or improved upon.

Sir, you have quite a way to go before you are anywhere near as compelling or as interesting as Prof. Karl Giberson, either as someone to respect or someone to dismiss - - whoever you are.

George Brooks

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@Eddie,

Technical or Popular… you coudn’t touch the influence that Giberson has made… or come up with conclusions as credible either.

Frankly, I think you could do with an injection of popular… sometimes the term means “relevant”.

Hi Eddie -

It would be a nice Christmas gift to us if you respond to this question that you have so far chosen to look past: [quote=“Chris_Falter, post:378, topic:18370”]
Are you saying that philosophers don’t need to make this kind of faith affirmation? Have philosophers solved the mystery of the Trinity and the mystery of God’s involvement with the world while I was putting my Christmas shopping list together?
[/quote]

Blessings,
Chris Falter

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Eddie -

That was an amazing audition! Congratulations, you have landed the role of your dreams in “Bus Station Serendipity,” my new one-act. I have re-written the ending especially to accommodate your thespian talents:

Scientist [randomly, to a bystander]: It rained a lot yesterday.

Philosophy professor [stepping in between the scientist and the bystander]: Was the rain ordained and determined by God from all eternity?

Scientist: I guess so. I mean, God designed the universe in such a way that it would rain on a planet like ours.

Philosophy professor: No, that won’t do! I believe that God determined from all eternity where and when every drop would fall, to the exact micron and millisecond. Come on, man, no one will respect you if you don’t make your convictions clear!

Scientist: Well, there seems to be a lot of controversy among theologians about the extent to which God controls every single outcome. But of course, I’m sure He controls everything that needs to be controlled.

Philosophy professor: That’s a tautology! How do you expect this chap over here to trust what you have to say about the rain if you won’t speak clearly?

Bystander (pushes past professor): Excuse me, sir. (To the scientist) Did I hear you say it rained a lot yesterday? Why, it didn’t rain at all at my home. Why do you suppose that happened?

Scientist: The conditions that determine the quantity of precipitation are distributed somewhat randomly…

Bystander (interrupting): That is so right! That, in a nutshell, is everyone’s experience of weather. Brilliantly explained, old chap!

Exeunt stage left. Curtain.

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While I find this approach amusing, I cannot help but think that the discussion has missed the point (or at least what I thought was the point) of providence.

The entire view stems from scripture that teaches us God made creation from nothing - this necessitates God sustaining His creation in every sense, movement, time, space, etc. The contrary to this would be that if God did not, for even a moment, the creation would revert to nothing.

I feel that words such a controls, designs, determines, are often used to bypass this central theological tenant, and eventually leads us to errors.

Merry Xmas

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Thank you George.

Chris

I remind you that it was you, not I, who raised the question of trying to foist supra-scientific discussions on professional scientists, when you took my mention that it is possible to take a teleological view of gravity even in the light of Einstein, and “tried” to get it published in an Astrophysics journal. I would have kept it to BioLogos, which recognises a powerful teleological cause in God.

That is true - but that’s not the case here, since if people are only talking about science here at BioLogos, they are not talking about Evolutionary Creation. The Logos and his work is not merely relevant too, but half of the concern of, BioLogos.

If theological or philosophical matters are not capable of being distinguished here as to their coherence (on the grounds simply that diverse views exist) then the same would, rationally, apply to science, and Creation Science would be on a level with the Modern Synthesis and we can all go home. There is bad theology and bad philosophy as well as bad science, and on much the same grounds - that it does not make sense of the evidence or of itself.

My point on this thread has been to show that deistic notions of creation and providence are still influential but have severe shortcomings, which is why they have been rare and localised in Christian history. Also that theology which gives due weight to special providence is actually reflecting the mainstream of historical Christian doctrine as much as Neodarwinism has reflected the mainstream of biological science. The reason for that is that such matters are amenable to discussion - they are not merely random opinions, any more than potassium-argon dating is just “someone’s opinion”.

I’ve also been seeking to show that treating chance as if it were a scientific cause (a relatively recent add-on to deism-determinism, in fact) is a refutable error which, in itself, distorts the role of God in his creation. Although chance is a metaphysical concept, I believe it can be shown, even scientifically, to fall outside the range of physical causes and into the mystical - which given the legacy of Monod in evolution, has some significance to both the scientific and theological aspects of evolution.

Anyway, I caught a lousy cold off my granddaughter so will aim to shake it off in time for the festivities - may you and yours enjoy good health at the feastof the Logos!

@Eddie @Jon_Garvey @gbrooks9 @Chris_Falter

As soon as the Forum closes down for Christmas, you’ll suddenly have a lot of spare time to spend with your families :grin:.

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