Evolutionary Creationist views of how life originated and evolved

Chris

It’s a bit unfair to ask me to define “natural” for you, and for science, since I reject the natural-supernatural division as intellectually incoherent, or like C S Lewis as a purely emotional distinction which, in my view, has no place in a rigorous pursuit like science. Nevertheless, there’s something that draws the boundaries round science, so if we insist on the term “natural”, how can we define it?

I’d have to go with Bishop Butler, I think, who wrote:

“The only distinct meaning of the word ‘natural’ is stated, fixed or settled; since what is natural as much requires and presupposes an intelligent mind to render it so, i.e., to effect it continually or at stated times, as what is supernatural or miraculous does to effect it for once.”

So my definition of natural would be couched in some terms like “lawlike patterns in the world”. Thus, as pithily as I can:

Nature is that in the world which is regular or repeatable. This is the proper study of science.

I’ll proceed to justify that, in the light of Joshua Swamidass’s careful work on the epistemological limitations of science, to try and make it useful.

The pursuit of science has, I think, two aspects. The first is the organised observation of phenomena and the collection of data. The second, more important part is the recognition of “stated, fixed or settled patterns” in those phenomena and the building of models and theories upon them.

These patterns include both those governing individual events, such as Newton’s laws, and far more commonly statistical patterns of events that, individually, are unknowable for practical reasons (such as the chaotic interactions of every molecule in a gas or the circumstances of individual genetic mutations) or for theoretical reasons (the physical indeterminacy of individual quantum events, according to Bell’s theorem). These patterns constitute the only field in which science proper has a role, but it’s a big role, and universally acceptable.

For a start, it has the benefit of applying to both natural and human sciences. To the extent that individual people’s activities exhibit general patterns, one can make statistical predictions, whilst recognising that perhaps only unknowable individual choices make up those patterns. It could even cover, say, a statistical study of miracle claims without necessarily negating their miraculous nature, so that one could do legitimate science on what kind of diseases are commonly, or rarely, presented as cured. The sole criterion is repeatable, lawlike patterns.

Secondly, all shades of theological opinion can subscribe to it, because the recognition of patterns makes no metaphysical claims about causation. To the metaphysical naturalist, the deduced laws are primary; to the deist they are set in place by God; the theist may openly hold to divine concurrence, and even the occasionalist who believes laws are just God’s habits of action may freely use the same concept, because the patterns are the subject matter, not metaphysical inferences beyond that.

But all sides will need to understand that, “beyond patterns” means, in fact, beyond nature as we have defined it and so beyond (current) science. To make a claim for “natural causes” for individual mutations, simply because there is a loose statistical pattern (as per Steve’s useful post, which was essentially what I meant by mine!) is not a scientific claim, although digging down and discovering repeatable causes extends the science, of course.

But even then, to the extent that one still has to manipulate the data statistically, even such real causes cannot be assumed to be the sole ones, for you cannot keep watch to see if angels, or some more prosaic cause, is responsible for some of them.

And so the word “natural” is legitimately applied only to the realm of patterns and laws. Least of all can one invoke randomness - which only means “ignorance of causation” - as a “natural cause”. It is neither a true efficient cause anyway, nor a lawlike pattern (unlike the macro-patterns that may emerge from multiple events of such unknown causes).

What this all means is that the term “methodological naturalism” will remain valid, but will have nothing whatsoever to do with the intellectually untenable “natural/supernatural” divide, but instead refers to the “natural/unrepeatable” divide. The more humbling side is that science will lose its pretence to be able to explain the whole of reality, but only by a realistic acknowledgement of its methodological limitations.

This will divide science sharply from “metaphysical naturalism”, which is inextricably wedded to the “natural/supernatural” divide and claims that only “the natural” exists - clearly they could live neither with the idea that only the repeatable exists, or that the world is bigger than their system. Metaphysical naturalism may go and define itself, if it can, with more or less incoherence.

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Thanks for this very helpful discourse, Jon.

I see now why you are so eager to refute any ontological sense of randomness. The fact that randomness functions are mathematically necessary in many scientific models does not necessarily imply that God has not foreseen or even determined each event.

Of course, making a decision between determined and foreseen is a theological debate that could spawn many discussion threads. It has been doing so for millennia.

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True indeed, Chris - but that’s a different question from what’s “natcheral”, which I hope my suggestion makes more tractable to science!

Still, if you dispense with the category of “ontological randomness” that question goes back where it originally belonged - in the matter of free choices of God and volitional agents, rather than the realm of Epicurean chance, where I don’t think Christians of former generations were ever much in doubt. I’ve been looking for an opportunity of using this quote from St Antony (the bloke who invented desert monks), so here it is:

A truly intelligent man has only one care—wholeheartedly to obey Almighty God and to please Him. The one and only thing he teaches his soul is how best to do things agreeable to God, thanking Him for His merciful Providence in whatever may happen in his life. For just as it would be unseemly not to thank physicians for curing our body, even when they give us bitter and unpleasant remedies, so too would it be to remain ungrateful to God for things that appear to us painful, failing to understand that everything happens through His Providence for our good. In this understanding and this faith in God lie salvation and peace of soul. (St Antony the Great)

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It has always fascinated me that so many Christians react so strongly against “random chance” when the Bible makes clear that God is sovereign over “randomness” just as he is over all other natural processes. I’ve talked with many Christians who consider “randomness” virtually a synonym for “atheism.”

I find it mind-boggling that anyone would think that God would be somehow frustrated by “randomness” and/or would never use it for his glory. (Of course, “randomness” is actually a very valuable and predictable phenomenon in the universe. For example, one could say that it is the basis for reliable nature of radiometric dating.)

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I find that there is often confusion over the meaning of the word “uniformitarianism”.

Some use it to refer to a long settled debate of the early 1800’s involving “catastrophism” versus “uniformitarianism” in geology. Others recognize it as an important basis of modern science—but I find that many Young Earth Creationist ministry websites incorrectly define it as “the assumption that all natural processes proceed at the same constant rate.” And when I try to get them to consult a science textbook or even Wikipedia for a standard definition, they insist that “Nobody defines it like you do!”

Frank, could you clarify how you are using the word “uniformitarianism”?

P.S. What I always find particularly baffling is how so many Young Earth Creationist websites post “101 Evidences for a Young Earth” —and virtually every one of their young earth arguments assumes a very rigid uniformitarianism of constant rates (even for natural processes which are well known NOT to be at constant rates, such as erosion rates, the salination of the oceans, and the movements of the moon in its distance from the earth.)

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@Frank

You are going to insist that, based on the use of the same word, that the word Day used in the Exodus story must be the same meaning as the word Day used in Genesis?

Did you ever take a course in Poetry Appreciation? Shakespeare must be completely incomprehensible to you …for how could Juliet, or Macbeth, or a King, say what he wants to say… while using words that mean something else completely?

That’s fine, SF, so long as we are careful to make the distinction between “ontological” and “epistemological” randomness. The Bible, of course, doesn’t use such terms, but they’re implicit.

And so when a soldier draws a bow “at a venture” it is to fulfil what God had determined, and spoken in prophecy, about the death of Ahab in the battle.

“The lot is cast into the lap…” (as a randomised act) “…but its every decision is from the Lord.” If we chose to be scientific about this example, we could say that the cast of the lot is physically determined by the nature of the lot, the strength of the cast, the topography of the lap, all of which make up the usefulness of the process in removing human predictability.

The omnisicient God would, or course, be perfectly aware of all those factors, quite apart from the future being present to him, so would know the result. But in some way he also determines the outcome to give (presumably) a useful decision for the priest casting the lot.

So the Christian who says that God could not oversee an evolutionary process in which chance events (meaning events including humanly unknown or unknowable causes) is missing a trick. But then, he’s probably reacting to the atheist who told him, “this process can’t be God’s purposeful creation, because it is stochastic”, and the atheist is missing exactly the same trick, which is the distinction between our ignorance and God’s knowlege and will.

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And is the central texting focused on the length of each YOM? Or on the special significance of SEVENs?

For the answer to that, we can simply notice that the Torah Law not only speaks of the SEVENS of DAYS but also of the SEVENS of YEARS and the SEVENS of WEEKS OF YEARS!

All of those “sabbatical patterns” that the Children of Israel were to observe involved SIX units of time followed by a SABBATH unit of time. Thus, to make the point again, there were to be sevens of days, sevens of years, and seven sevens of years. It is hard to miss that fact that the significance is in the SEVENS, not in the units.

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@Socratic.Fanatic

I have no idea what your point is…

Look up sabbatical years and The Year of Jubilee and you will. (I had assumed that these are familiar concepts for most participants here but perhaps they are not.)

You brought up the sevens of days so I reinforced your point by mentioning the sevens of years (Sabbatical Year) and the sevens of sevens of years in the Jubilee celebration.

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The debate on random/randomness continues to rage on this site. The term has scientific significance mainly when we consider quantum states (QM), but it is often used in a wider sense, to include any chance event that may be approached statistically, and also in the widest sense of something that cannot be predicted, and cannot be known (although in many instances something is known or at least suspected).

Theologically I cannot see any justification in claiming God uses random …. anything, since that term implies God may be subject to chance or unpredictable outcomes. As a generalisation, it seems to me that some scientists are willing to concede that classical chemistry cannot account for origins of life, so to maintain their belief that it somehow may, they turn to untestable QM speculations.

I think the only sensible meaning of the term is that dealing with QM, and in this area, discussions on origins of life become so speculative that we may just as well think this as science fiction – although some are fascinated by the subject. A good treatment of this is given by one such enthusiast, PCW Davies, “Does quantum mechanics play a non-trivial role in life?” BioSystems 78 (2004) 69-79. Some quotes may give a flavour on this topic:

“… quantum realm, any vestige of its quantum nature, other
than its inherent randomness, is manifested.
Molecular biology is founded on a key dualism. Biological
molecules serve two distinct roles: (i) specialized
chemicals, (ii) informational molecules. This re-
flects the underlying dualism of phenotype/genotype.
Using the analogy of computing, chemistry corresponds
to hardware, information to software.”

Another general argument concerns the emergence
of complexity, of which life is a special case. Lloyd
(1997) has argued that the inherent randomness of
quantum fluctuations constitutes a rich source of algorithmic
complexity. He recalls the metaphor of the
monkey typing on a typewriter, and observes that there
is a much higher probability of the monkey randomly
constructing a computer program that will generate
complex output states than the probability of those output
states being generated de novo.
These sorts of argument are at best suggestive. They
help delineate the boundaries of the quantum regime
and invite further study, but they are no substitute for
direct evidence of quantum effects at work in biology.

His essential conjecture is that a self-replicator
would trigger a “collapse of the wave function” (i.e.,
strong decoherence), thus “locking in” the “discovery”
of this crucial molecule. The justification for his conjecture
is that replicating molecules impact their environment
much more strongly than a random molecule
in a quantum soup. If quantum mechanics does indeed
encourage a chemical mixture to “zero in” on
replicator states as conjectured, then a mixture of nucleotides
strands might be encouraged to “discover”
the self-replicating configuration with quantum search
efficacy. A plausible (though technically highly challenging)
experimental scenario would be to construct
a chemical soup consisting of a dynamic combinatorial
library of RNA molecules linked by quantum tunneling.
A self-replicating molecule might be one of
an exponentially large number of possible structures
that could be synthesized, but the limited resources of
the soup would make its appearance highly improbable
classically.

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GJDS

I’ve put up a little tale on the non-quantum relationship between creation and randomness here.

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Good one Jon; I know I like blondie so I do not know?
I cannot get my head around QM coin tossing - but than I am but a simple minded scientist.:sunglasses:

Hi Jon, thank you. That question is quite deep if you think about it.

I agree it’s philosophical quicksand to separate “natural” from “supernatural”. In fact, I think we could just throw that whole dichotomy out of the window. Everything natural implies something supernatural: God as the Creator. Miracles then are not more or less “supernatural” than anything else, but they serve a specific purpose in God’s ongoing story as demonstrations of His power. Miracles defy our conception of the ordinary, but for God that’s no problem.

I don’t think the regularities of nature are completely subjective though, because there is some extremely consistent rationality expressed in them. It is amazing to consider how Quantum Field Theory makes use of the mathematical formalism of group theory to derive the existence of most elementary particles from first principles. Or how General Relativity benefits from tensor calculus to capture the influence of energy on the structure of spacetime.

I remember having a conversation with an atheist who argued that the fundamental nature of Nature is logic. Everything at its core (even the most chaotic systems) appears to operate on basis of some logical rules. My reply to him was simply to ask, “Whose logic?” He did not have any answer. I consider it an obvious conclusion that the source and enforcer of that logic is God. That’s what we tap into when we study nature using the scientific method. In fact, scientific enquiry is based on the belief that there is some core of rationality in every phenomenon. Some people associate that logic with Jesus, the Logos, in Whom everything holds together.

I agree that the analogy is not perfect. But what I like about it is that you literally see Babjanyan hovering over the ball as the trick shot comes to its fruition. You see that he cares and looks forward to its success. I can think of three ways of involvement here that pose a nice analogy to God’s work:

  1. having perfect foreknowledge, “setting up the table in just the right way”
  2. sustaining, “keeping the laws of momentum conservation et cetera up and running”
  3. caring personally, “hovering over the outcome”. I picture this as a heavenly audience that looks on in tension as we encounter temptations. God’s angels cheer in joy as we overcome those, or cheer in support as we stumble.

I’m open to more ways of conceptualizing involvement if you have any suggestions. If the outcome would end up requiring some extra “taps”, that would sort of negate number 1, unless those extra taps themselves were also foreknown. But that would not add any extra intensity to the involvement because it would become some sort of “God of the Taps”.

Casper

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Mutation rates are observed, not assumed. As for error correction, you’re mistaken in equivocating between errors and mutations.

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Yes, and that is why the fact that selection acts on existing heritable variation (i.e., Darwinian evolution as proposed by Darwin) is ignored and even denied.

Casper

You’ll see from ensuing posts that I don’t think the natural/supernatural dichotomy helps anything in science, for your and other reasons. One of the most fascinating, to me, is the way things slip in and out of the categories as fashions change.

Taking “natural” as “regular”, though, is certainly not subjective, because it can be defined and is operationally useful, as well as closely mappting to what science actually seeks to do, that is seeking out the laws or regularities behind mere observations.

I agree with you that equating “Nature” with “logic” is a non-starter - for a start, mathematics, which is entirely logical, has no necessary counterpart in nature. Arthur Eddington describes wonderfully how Lewis Carroll’s Jabberwocky is entirely logically consistent with the laws of nature yet has no existence in nature.

And contingency (the proper opposite of regularity) need not be illogical: it is logical, perhaps, for me to make friends with rich people in the hope they will help me, but one couldn’t really say that it is a process of “nature”.

On the question of God’s involvement, we’re probably straying from, at least, my contribution on the thread, which has already drifted to randomness, when my aim was to be rigorous about what is meant by “nature”.

Still, let me make one response, though: “setting the table up in just the right way” presupposes that God is setting up a trick shot, rather than a real game of snooker (to create an over-crude dichotomy) and one needs to argue for one or the other… I’m thinking at the level of the created world and science, here.

Leibniz, the deist, argued for the trick-shot on the basis that God was clever enough to do it - Newton, the theist, for the snooker-game on the basis of biblical revelation about God’s active involvement in his world. I suppose a question arising from that would be the level at which other agents are able to interfere with the determinism of Leibniz’s system. It’s generally been the Christian position that God positively interacts with human choices, and in that sense (with philosophical and theological caveats) is working a billiard table with other players, not just passive balls. (There are more sophisticated ways of seeing God as sovereign even over human choice, but I’m taking basics in relation to “nature” here).

As you see even in this thread, I’m not convinced that God has built ontological randomness into the world, but randomness as uncertainty affects not only humans, but lower creatures and processes too.

One reason Babjanyan’s abilities are limited is that within a very few collisions of billiard balls, the inherent chaos of the system, not only from human inexactness but even from the imperfect shape of the balls and table, make for broad divergences. So given creaturely freedom of any sort (and I mean freedom, rather than randomness), it’s hard to see how God’s trick shot would end up anywhere he intended in the longer run.

Here, though, is a further conceptualization of God’s involvement, based on God as a player rather than a programmer - perhaps a player of music is a better analogy than a player of billiards. If I as a guitarist I “set up my table” by playing some riff or regular chord sequence on the bass strings, and then play a tune, or improvise, on the top strings, then the whole language of “extra taps” is inappropriate. For I’m playing everything according to plan, but what I’m playing consists of both regularity and contingency, and it’s all me and my active fingers (even should I cunningly set up a sampling pedal to handle the regular bits).

This analogy actually fits the biblical concept of nature as an instrument or tool God uses, rather than as an automaton he sets up.

In medicine, we deal with “physiology” and “pathology”, and the difference is “error”.

But hey - why should I accept correction for using the term “error correction” when it’s as as universal in the literature as “change of gene frequency”, which you once also tried to insist was a childish error on my part? My assertion stands unmutated.

I completely agree with that and I really appreciate your music analogy. However, this discussion started at a point where life had not arrived at the scene yet. I was describing my view of how life could have originated to Frank. There were no other conscious beings on earth at that time. Without any other agents on the scene, is there any way to distinguish a trick-shot from an elaborate symphony of cause and consequence? Or a “trick-shot” from a “real game”? To me, those two do not exclude each other. It can be both. In fact, “sustaining” can be seen as sustaining a melody by playing the right notes at the right time.

Because I was talking about pre-biotic occurrences, the billiard analogy didn’t address the mode of God’s involvement that I consider central to the Christian faith: personal interaction. It is through interaction with the person of Jesus that we come to know God. When other players start joining the symphony, it becomes clear that your music analogy indeed is a much more appropriate way of characterizing Creation. I do believe that God would still be the final composer of the resulting symphony (i.e., sovereign).

Like you, I don’t think ontological randomness is built into nature. From my own background in quantum physics I know that prominent quantum theorists have been developing a robust understanding of physical mechanisms that can coordinate the collapse of the wave function into apparently random outcomes (see, for example, the work of Wojciech H. Zurek on quantum darwinism). Their framework leads to the conclusion that the randomness in quantum physics is epistemological and not fundamental.

Thanks for the conversation!
Casper

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Casper

First, I appreciate your careful distinction of conscious beings from unconscious - that has sometimes been confused in the discussion, and I’ve always tried to keep them apart when discussing “freedom” and so on. I guess my angle on that here is allowing the possibility of a degree of animal volition messing up the predictability of chaotic systems in an analogous way to human choice - but I’m not wedded to that as a vital principle.

Still, if humans have been on the scene for a while, we can’t entirely discount their role in the “billiard game of nature”! The question remains of God’s “use” of contingent events in the physical creation with respect to mankind, against the background of laws of nature… and even evolution is still going on.

I’m interested in your view that there is still a significant debate in physics about the question of quantum randomness as epistemological. I’ve always been happy to defend such a thing theologically - in that what God creates, he knows, even if nature or man doesn’t. But of course, life is simpler if quantum events are just a more refined example of a stochastic system. A bit of a shame for Robert Russell’s idea of quantum tinkering, though!

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