Dying in the Name of Vaccine Freedom

What are the numbers showing us? Is it better to err on the side of caution or death and disease?

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This is a false choice.

It could be used to argue for a total lockdown of society.

Like it or not, balancing risk with reward is necessary.

And reasonable people of goodwill can differ on the appropriate balance.

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That is a distortion.
 

Sure. We could also argue for a total lockdown of society instead of putting children in carseats. Yes, I understand your reasoning. Great argument.
 

Some do it better than others. (E.g., surgeons and oriental schoolchildren.)
 

Federal mandates for masks a year ago would have prevented a patchwork. Federal mandates for masks could still be done with parameters, couldn’t they. Federal mandates for vaccines are still a good thing.

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Yes, and antimaskers and antivaxxers aren’t them.
 

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I did watch the video and I think it is wrong to look down on someone who doesn’t fit your (the general term) narrative. Not only is it wrong, but THAT is the very reason people won’t get it.

Lets talk about facts. The new definition for a vaccine
Vaccine- A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases.
Prior to 1 Sept 2021 the definition was:
Vaccine- A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.

This is what MMR and various other successful vaccines have done for us in the past and why I am definitely not an anti-vaxxer.

However, the flu ‘vaccine’ and covid ‘vaccine’, use this new definition, and I am against them. Or not really against them, but should not be mandated and shamed upon for not getting.

This is another fact that I am sure you will agree with me on (but please if any fact I post emphasizing it as a fact is wrong, please let me know. I am using what I hear Faucci and CDC and WHO say about it), but if one gets this vaccine, they can still get covid right? They can still spread covid right?

So it is accurately defined now, in that it is basically a syptom reducer, it takes the ‘venom out of the fangs’ so to speak. That could be a great reason to get one personally.

I also believe that those that do die or get harmed from the vaccine, would have gotten just as harmed if not worse from covid. It is the spike protein (controlled) in the vaccine that causes the reaction, the same spike protein (uncontrolled) that is in covid that would have caused the same if not worse reaction. So you don’t have to worry about me warning others from taking the vaccine citing the negative reactions.

I know you are people of science, so you don’t like ‘gut’ feelings probably, and I generally don’t like them either. But there is so much dishonesty and weird actions that comes with the vaccine that prevents many from taking it. The fact that you have to be looked down upon for not taking it, incentivized to take it, and then punished for not. No one needs all that coercion to take something that is good for them, and people would trust you more if you wouldn’t lie about it.

So just tell people that this vaccine again is a great and successful symptom reducer and you should take it for that reason and there are very statistically few negative issues that could arise, and oh yea, those negative issues would be way worse than if you got he virus naturally (depending on the ‘dose’). And I bet more would get it.

But since we know this doesn’t prevent you from getting it, or spreading it (unlike a MMR vaccine) why do you care if anyone gets it? Short of the potentially valid reason that when you get it, you get sick and utilize the hospitals and potentially use too many resources so others can’t use them. That is slightly valid. BUT, what about the guy with heart disease who is in the hospital that needs a pace maker and can’t because the hospital was full, how dare you not get the vaccine, get covid, get administered to the hospital and take his bed and he dies because of you.
What about that guy? How selfish was he for eating fast food and not exercising? So we can’t play that game, because thought some in the hospital it might not be their fault. I don’t know actually numbers, but I would bet a large amount (more than half) are in the hospital die to poor choices they made earlier. So you (again, the general term you) can’t condemn the unvaccinated for taking up hospital beds anymore than you can condemn those with many of the comorbidities. Yes I understand car accidents happen to victims and victims get shot, and people are born with type 1 diabetes. But again, I am talking of the others.

So if we can’t condemn them for taking up beds, what else can we condemn the unvaccinated for? We can’t blame them for spreading it anymore than we can blame the vaccinated for spreading it, as I think we all agree the vaccine does not create immunity from the disease, rather it is a symptom reducer.

So knowing this, why do we still feel the need to punish the unvaccinated? To look down on them like the vaccinted are better people? It sounds to me a lot like virtue signaling. Look how great I am, I care about others and you don’t. How exactly do the unvaccinated not care about others? Because people die by you spreading it? Don’t the vaccinated spread it too?

But the logic gets silenced, and THAT is why most don’t get vaccinated. Not so much because of freedom, but there is some weird narrative and virtue signaling that causes much distrust. Sure there is also much disinformation too, but if you simply told people the truth and didn’t berate them for speaking logic, more people would vaccinate.

Now I don’t know enough about biology (I’m sure someone here can correct me on this one), but I would even think that is is possible that the vaccines that do not create immunity are the reasons for all of these variants? If the vaccinated would get the virus, and the symptoms are reduced, but the virus lives on, wouldn’t it mutates to something that resistant to the vaccine and keep mutating over and over again?

The Spanish flu killed a bunch of people right? And then didn’t it die out? There was no vaccine for that right? Natural immunity worked right? I mean many hundreds of thousands died, I am not sure if there is a way to stop that, other than possibly investing in treatments for it. But isn’t a few hundred thousand better than millions for the rest of our lives or until (if) we discover a vaccine that does grant us immunity?

So should the unvaccinated look at the vaccinated as causing for more deaths than would have happened if there was no vaccine in the name of “science” or “liberals”? No, the unvaccinated shouldn’t shame the vaccinated either. Only God has the answers, and we are to love one another and do our best, most importantly understanding He is in control and desires our kindness towards others rather than “loving them with our supremely correct narrative”. Not force our narratives and theories (which could be wrong) on everyone else and look down on them for not following our narrative? The “supremely right” narrative?

I think the reason so many are dying now is that these are the same people that probably would have died last year if not for guaranteeing. They didn’t get covid yet, and had they got it last year, it would have killed them too. So quaranteeing bought them another year of life.

I have got covid now twice. Once before it was even ‘known’ in this country and once somewhat recently. It was much less of an event this time around i believe because of the natural immunities I had from last time. I don’t see why I should have to get a vaccine, I have pretty good immunity to it now, a great symptom reducer in my blood, much like a vaccine gives.

You don’t take (I assume) an anti-psychotic pill do you? Why? Because you are not psychotic. Should I label you a refuser? You simply don’t see a need for it. Anything no matter how innocuous it may be, shouldn’t be forced on you if you don’t want it, and could harm you in some way. A risk that is .00000000000000000000000000001% is still too high of a risk for no benefit. I am speaking of those that have antibodies from covid, not others. I would recommend anyone who had not had covid to get the vaccine though, it is a great symptom reducer. But I won’t shame you for not getting it.

I mean, this is spread so easily apparently from just breathing without a mask, yet they need to stick a swab up your nose practically into your brain, then amplify this through a PCR cycle 25 times to show if you have it or not? I don’t think the CDC agrees with the WHO on this yet, but I am pretty sure the WHO and myself believes that this is an aerosolized virus. That paper or cotton masks do very very little to prevent it’s spread, even an n95 mask does little, it can get into your eyes, its in the air. The best defense is a good air filtration circulation system, and that is why (well before masks were mandated) the rate of covid cases from airplanes were .000004%. Planes have excellent air circulation, it is a beneficial unintended byproduct of pressurizing the aircraft.
If it didn’t cycle, it would be overpresurrized. It works by constant new air from outside, sucked in the engine, compressed and then filtered and shoved into the airplane and an outflow valve releasing that air. You need that compressed air for the engine to work, you can’t turn it off. You either get pressurized air that is metered to escape from an outflow valve to keep some pressure, or a valve that closes and then no pressurized air gets in. This is why you can sit 1 foot from another who has a virus that is aerosolized and not get that virus in high enough quantities that cause an infection. Masks on a plane are especially unnecessary.

But being told by these same experts that a mask is needed on an airplane, and a vaccine that they themselves admit doesn’t prevent you from getting it or spreading it, but if you get it it will protect others??? and if you don’t get it you hate others…or value your freedom more than others lives… Again, that is why people don’t get the vaccine. Not so much freedom, but dishonesty and shame creating an unsettling feeling in their guts.

The numbers of children sick and dying going up will be an adequate argument, albeit too late for many. Parents in the '50s were eager for their children to be vaccinated against polio because the disease was so terrible and so many affected.

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Sorry, but you seem to have created a wholly fallacious distinction and then based your rejection of these vaccines on it. All vaccines stimulate the immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Since that’s exactly what the covid vaccines do, you should be in favor of them, so… what the heck are you talking about?

Quite right. One can still get covid-19 after being vaccinated. Just as one can still get mumps or measles after MMR vaccination, or polio after polio vaccination, or Ebola after Ebola vaccination. No vaccine is 100% effective.

It also reduces transmission. That effect is pretty clearly waning, which is the main impetus for booster vaccines. (Which, again, is a familiar reality with other vaccines. It’s why a second and then a third dose of mumps vaccine was added to the standard schedule, for example.)

Excellent.

That’s simply incorrect. People have had to be socially pressured, incentivized, and punished for failing to wear seatbelts, for refraining from driving drunk, and for smoking. Lots and lots of people are very willing to do things that are bad for them and equally willing to refrain from doing things that are good for them. Not to be snarky, but have you actually met humans? We’re a pretty stupid lot.

What lies?

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Just one question for antivaxers. Why do you want to kill my gramma?

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Why assume “that guy” was eating fast food and not exercising? A heart condition could be congenital. I’ve had two strokes but I have been vegan for years, exercise a lot, and weight exactly 100 pounds. Go figure.

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I think it is important not to assume the motivations of others or the reasons people are sick.

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This is wrong. Vaccines do indeed prevent most people from getting infected. The mRNA vaccines are still something like 87% effective at preventing a COVID infection, even with Delta. If a vaccine prevents infection 87% of the time, that will significantly impact spread.

Think of the math this way. You have 10 unvaccinated people who have not had COVID before. They all get COVID because they have no protection against infection. They each pass the sickness on to 7 people, for a total of 70 more people infected. If the same group of ten was all vaccinated, 9 of them would not have gotten infected, and the one person who got a break through infection would pass the sickness on to 7 people. So that’s 80 sick people compared to 8 sick people after one “round” of spreading. Does it make sense how high vaccination rates curb spread in a population?

It is true that infected people, vaccinated or unvaccinated, spread the sickness at the same rates (each infected person gives it to seven others). But that doesn’t mean that the sickness spreads through vaccinated and unvaccinated populations at the same rates because of the protection against infection that vaccines provide. And yes there is some immunity from past infections, so it’s not like the unvaccinated population is 0% protected against infection because some people have antibodies that provide a degree of protection. But those people also are also at risk of long term affects from their COVID infection and some studies say natural immunity produced by a COVID infection does not provide as robust or long lasting protection as vaccination against getting reinfected. I have a friend in the hospital right now dying of her second COVID infection. She has been intubated for 4 weeks. She couldn’t get vaccinated in Mexico because they weren’t available for people under 40 at the time she got for the second time.

Why do vaccinated people care about unvaccinated people getting the vaccine?

  1. It curbs spread in populations (as explained above) which helps protect children and others who cannot get vaccinated.
  2. When the spread is curbed it lessens the strain on the hospital system. No beds and no ventilators available puts medical personnel in the terrible position of having to triage patients and decide who gets care and who is left to die. People who are in accidents, have heart attacks, or strokes, or need surgeries are not being cared for because unvaccinated COVID patients who could have prevented their own sickness are putting a strain on all the resources.
  3. Medical care for COVID is expensive. The average cost of a hospital stay for COVID treatment is $50,000-75,000. My health insurance premiums have gone up every year in recent memory and currently cost me more than $1,000/month for a high deductible PPO. This study estimates that in just June and July, preventable COVID infections among the unvaccinated cost hospitals over $2 billion dollars. Unvaccinated COVID-19 hospitalizations cost billions of dollars - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker If you think these costs are not going to be passed along to us in the long run, you are naive.
  4. It is painful to watch an unvaccinated friend or relative or loved one suffer unnecessarily. Vaccination makes it 99.9% sure you won’t die a slow painful death alone while your loved ones sit on the sidelines wishing you had gotten the stupid vaccine. Why wouldn’t you want to spare them the possibility of dealing with this kind of tragedy if you could? None of us is an island and our choices affect the people who love us. I care that my friends and family don’t have their lives cut short by a preventable sickness.
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I am in favor of them for those who haven’t got covid yet. But I am not in favor or forcing any one to get anything. I am not in favor of laws requiring seatbelts or anything that harms only the individual.

This is where my lack of biological knowledge comes into play and maybe you can educate me. How were some of these diseases eradicated then? Or are they still around, but there are no symptoms from it so we don’t care about it?
I guess that makes sense, that is why we still vaccinate for them?
But again, if I don’t have a MMR vaccine and I happen to be an asymptomatic person, why should you care if I get vaccinated? If the virus only effects those unvaccinated and those folks don’t want to get vaccinated, why do the vaccinated care?

How? What mechanism is slowing transmission? Unless you are referring to if I have symptoms and I cough more or are more snotty?

Again, what if I have no symptoms and I am unvaccinated. How am I any different from a vaccinted?

Lies that say they are harming others if by being unvaccinated. How? I guess the science between CDC and WHO is up for debate, so it isn’t really lying if they believe it is spread through droplets in which case masks might help slightly. But I really don’t think it is spread by droplets and the WHO agrees. It is aerosol and it gets into eyes and outside air exchange or an airplane (and possibly a hospital) is the safest place to be.

But again, how can something so easily transmissible require a swab way up the nose AND multiple cycles of amplification for a PCR test to read positive?

I wasn’t. That is why I said I understand that some are born with type 1. I know how long winded I can be and was hoping to not have to list every possible circumstance. But yes, some are in the hospital due to others putting them there and others form genetics. But many are there for their bad choices. Deciding to skate board without a helmet, eating too much, not enough exercise, some smoking, trying to climb multiple milk crates, eating a tide pod ect. And we seem to have no problem treating them or making them feel bad about their choices or complain about them taking up hospital beds. But it is ok to berate a person who got covid and didn’t want to vaccinate?

now I am confused. I am not sure who is smarter, you or @glipsnort . He just said no vaccine is 100% effective. Or did he mean no vaccine is effective for 100% of the people?

I thought it was a fact that the vaccine doesn’t prevent you from getting infected, it just reduces the symptoms. And if it is 100% effective…then why do you care about who gets vaccinated? If the vaccine is readily available for anyone who wants it, and if getting it protects you, why do you care who doesn’t have it and how are those that dont have it harming anyone?

I don’t know if this is above either of your wheel houses. But do you know why there is no Spanish flu mutations? Would it not be a good assumption that it was because no vaccine was made for it?

Why are there no MMR mutations? Was it because the vaccine was 100% effective and there is nothing to mutate?

I am tracking the math and I am familiar with how exponential spreading works. My thoughts are based off it being spread just as much by vaccinated or unvaccinated.

That is what I thought I was saying that you and @glipsnort were refuting.

If they spread it at the same rate, the vaccinated are just as much responsible for the death from spreading covid right?

That is why I would recommend to anyone I know who hasn’t got covid yet to get the vaccine. It is a great symptom reducer. But I see no need for those with antibodies to get it, nor do I see the need to force anyone to get it that doesn’t want it.

You honestly don’t think there are people (family, friends, medical personnel) making them feel bad about their choices?

You bring up a lot of issues, and I am sympathetic to some of them. However, even if you have antibiodies, the truth is they fall with time, and a vaccine can help prevent recurrent infections. I know quite a few people who had Covid again, as well as some who caught Covid after the vaccine. Percentage-wise, those people are less likely to have severe disease, but can still spread it to vulnerable populations.

As to mandated vaccination, I sort of agree that society should not require an individual to be vaccinated, but at the same time it is only fair that that individual should not be given access and participation in the benefits and protection of that society afforded by the vaccine. If you don’t wear a seatbelt, you shouldn’t ride in cars on public highways. If you don’t stop drinking, you shouldn’t drive. If you are endangering others in public places, you should be excluded from public places. Only fair.

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No where near at the scale that it is with the unvaccinated. You aren’t told you are responsible for killing my grandma ect. No.

If you have a bad diet, you are told to fix it or die. I am fine if you said "if you are unvaccinated, fix it or die.

What you don’t hear is, “you have a bad diet, you are responsible for thousands of deaths.” Like you hear towards the unvaccinated.

Maybe because somebody eating a tide pod isn’t a serious threat to other people?

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That’s because somebody with a bad diet doesn’t have the potential to cause thousands of deaths.

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Holding drunk drivers legally, morally, and financially responsible for the death and destruction they cause is of course tragically common. Now, perhaps it is a stretch to compare that to spreading a disease that causes a death that you did not want to have in the first place, but if that disease was preventable and you did nothing to prevent it, perhaps it is comparable. We certainly see European invaders blamed for the spread of smallpox that wiped out huge numbers of the indigenous population of the Americas. Some was incidental, some was purposeful as I understand it.

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I would agree with you there. IF the unvaccinated had any more risk to others than the vaccinated did. I am still trying to sort that out. As the vaccinated get and spread it too.

What I was referring to with those eating tie pods are for those in the beliefs that since covid only effects the unvaccinated, they argue they are taking hospital beds. And to THAT specific argument only, I am saying no different than a tide pod eater.

Exactly my point. People who have the vaccine have less bad symptoms, and spread it just as much as the unvaccinated.

And if the vaccinated spread it just as much as the unvaccinated, the vaccinated are just as responsible for the death of others as the unvaccinated. And there is no need to force anyone to get it. But to inform people that it is a good idea to get the vaccine if they never had covid before, because it could prevent them from dying and getting terribly ill.

But the drunk driver was being negligent. They were aware that IF they were to drive drunk and they were aware they were driving drunk, that it could kill.

People won’t know if they have covid or not, not are thy trying to kill anyone. But short of taking a hourly test, it is impossible to know if you have it or not, vaccinated or unvaccinated. Now if you were showing symptoms of it, and were spreading it (not quarantining) I would agree that you might have an argument for liability there.