Okay. I just went to my website and found your comment. Thanks for commenting here as well!
Tom
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Of course I see the problem. The problem seems to be Does God choose to lessen suffering at the price of restricting freedom? This might seem to be an simple decision, but it is not!
The problem with restricting freedom, is one cannot do so a little bit. If one restricts the freedom of one person to sin, why not all persons. On the other hand suffering is not evil per se. Suffering can be the result of sin, but it is not always. Suffering is a part of pregnancy and death. It is a part of birth, it is a part of life, It is a part of learning and loving.
Where do we draw the line? because God has not drawn the line. God surely don’t like ugly and there is way too much ugly in the world today and yesterday, but it is not up to God to stop it. It is up to us because it is we who are responsible.
On the other hand God does hear the cries of God’s people and comforts them with God’s Love and Peace and even Joy. Then too eternal life with God is God’s answer to pain and death. God is doing God’s part. We know that God will make all things right.
Roger
This is not to gloss over evil, but to warn those who are comfortable with evil, that they are responsible for their actions and inaction… Sadly Church and Mosque do not seem to understand this.
Please read my essay, God and Freedom. It is on line at Academia.edu and is Chapt 2 of my book, The GOD Who RELATES
Thanks for your response, Roger.
I have made a distinction between suffering and genuine evil. Not all suffering is genuine evil. So the question is, why would God not prevent what is genuinely evil?
But your recent comments make me think you believe God never controls by taking away freedom. Perhaps you and I actually agree! Or are you saying that sometimes God controls and sometimes God does not? If you are saying that God sometimes controls, it seems to me you are not solving the problem of evil and have a difficult time presenting a consistent case that God is perfectly good.
Warm regards,
Tom
Hi Tom,
Long time, no see. I hope all is well.
I see you making the assertion that God’s love logically precedes God’s power, but I don’t actually see you making the logical argument.
What I see is essentially this unsubstantiated assertion: “God’s love logically precedes God’s power, because I believe that it is so. Therefore, love comes first. Now that we’ve established that logically, let’s accept this premise as an axiom, so I won’t have to defend it again.”
Am I missing something? I’ve read your latest book and the argument there is the same. A bald assertion with no justification as far as I can see. No major premise, no minor premise, just a conclusion that is repeated without support.
Inasmuch as this is the lynchpin of your theology (at least as far as I can tell), I would have thought that you would have spent a fair amount of time supporting it, especially with scripture, inasmuch as you are within the evangelical tradition, broadly speaking.
While there are several things we see eye to eye on, I’m sure, I’m just trying to get my mind around what makes this assertion self-evident and therefore not in need of any logical support.
I’m on the road for the next few days, so no need to respond asap.
The short answer to that question is: God in God’s wisdom and love gave humans the ability and freedom to decide between good and evil. Should God now say, “Humanity that was a huge mistake and I take it back. From here on you cannot choose to do evil, or if you do I will prevent you from carrying out your evil plans and actions.” I do not think so and I urge to read my essay on God and Freedom to see exactly why.
A primary reason is you are thinking in the dualistic mode of controlling or not controlling. As I tried to explain God does control, but not micro-manage, which most people mean by control. This allows for both freedom and control.
God also uses evil to expose evil and destroy itself. That is what the Crucifixion did. I think that is what is happening on the current US political scene. We are not supposed talk politics on this Blog, but this certainly goes beyond partisan politics. This is serious history in the making that everyone needs to take seriously.
Tillich wrote a profound book entitled Love, Power, and Justice. I have not looked at it for a long time, but what I remember about it was that he discussed how God (Who is and acts as Trinity) uses these three aspects of divinity to guide God’s people toward God’s Kingdom. It is not by choosing between Love, Power, or Justice, but by using all three that God will bring about God’s Will on earth as it is in heaven. Not just one or two are part of God’s solution, but all three.
What we see on earth is not a clear reflection of what God wants to happen. To the contrary. However God gives humans the tools to work with God and others to make God’s Will into a reality. It can only be done together, not only by God or only by humans. If it were up to God to prevent evil, then no one could or would stand.
God is perfectly good in that God is carrying out God’s salvation plan for God’s Kingdom. No thing and no one (except Jesus) is really good in this world. We are only doing our best to work with God to carry our God’s Will and Plan which are Good.
Yours,
Roger
Sean,
Great to hear from you! Thanks for chiming in.
The argument that love logically precedes power/choice in God’s nature is not a logical one in the strictly deductive sense. It’s a metaphysical argument and it uses inductive logic. That is, it says the notion that love logically precedes power in God’s nature makes better sense, overall, of God and the world.
As far as biblical support, I note in the book the various times in the Bible in which the writers say God cannot do some thing or another. They don’t say God “chooses not to do it;” they say God cannot do it. The verse I like especially is in Timothy in which Paul says, “When we are faithless, God remains faithful, for He cannot deny himself.” This verse doesn’t explicitly say love precedes power in God’s nature, but it says there are some things God cannot do, because God’s moral aspects prevent God from choosing to do so.
Thanks again, Sean. I hope things are going well for you these days.
Tom
Most who affirm a kenotic view of divine power, however, believe God’s power is voluntarily self-limited. In other words, kenosis is an accidental characteristic of God not essential to God’s nature. This view implies that God could control, but (usually) does not. God could fail to self-give and others-empower, but God (usually) does not. Thomas Tracy describes this view when he speaks of God’s “intentional self-restraint.”[5] - See more at: Divine Action as Uncontrolling Love - Article - BioLogos
Here I think is the problem and it is a basic one. Does God act out of God’s will or mind, or does God act out of God’s nature? Above you say that self-limitation has to be based in God’s nature, not God’s “accidental” choice. Not really true, because that makes God less than humans. Humans so not act directly out of their nature, they act out of their will.
“God so loved the world that He sent His only Son so that Whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” I believe based on the Biblical revelation that God the Father did not have to send Jesus the Messiah. God the Father chose to send the Son Who chose to go.
It was a decision which They both made out of Their love for humanity and Each Other, but it was a Choice, not a Necessity. God Father Son, and Holy Spirit loves humanity freely not necessarily, which is the reason that God is Good. God is free to make choices, not a slave to God’s Nature.
How can God, Who is One make good choices? God can do so because God is also Three. God is not only Love, God is also Freedom and Justice. Paul was right, God cannot deny Godself. God is always faithful, but sometimes that faithfulness means that we must be disciplined. Sometimes that faithfulness means that we must accept the limitations of our mortal existence. Sometimes it even means that we must live with the evil consequences of other people so God’s plan can be worked out.
I believe with Paul that ALL things work for good for those who love God. Romans 8:28 That means to me that God is able to cause even evil to work for our good. This is the way God “controls” the universe and makes a way even when there is no way. God makes justice out of injustice. See Joseph and his brothers.
The fact that God is Three and One means that God is relational, not just superficially, but basically. God is Love because God is relational. God is Freedom, because God is relational. God is Justice because God is relational. Love, Justice, and Freedom are all necessary, right, and good, because that is Who God is, and that is who we are by nature.
God could be other than Who God is, but God is not. But God is not controlled by God’s nature, but because of God’s character or Will/Spirit. Maybe there is a multiverse with 10 to the 500 billionth power different Gods, but this is our universe and this is where we live and have our being.
If GOD IS WHO GOD IS, as God said, then God YHWH must be YHWH by choice and not by nature.
Can a God of uncontrolling love resurrect Jesus from the dead? I answer, “Yes” in this new podcast interview with Glenn Siepert Episode 63: Thomas Oord Talks To Us About Reading The Bible, Divine Healing, The Resurrection, And The Book Of Revelation (Setting The Bible Free, Part 4) | What If Project
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