Denying that God is triune puts you outside orthodox Christian teaching?


This is a little late in context but I want to get back to the original discussion about the Trinity. This is a little long so apologies, but I pray you take the time to consider what I present.

You state that the only reason the church supports the idea of the trinity is that it is “doctrine” as though there is no Scriptural support. But there is a wealth of Scripture already quoted above that I will add to:

Colossians 1:15-19

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

“By Him (Jesus) all things were created”, but God the Father is the creator.

“all things were created…”for Him,” yet in the Old Testament clearly all things were created for the Father, not the Son.

“He is before all things” yet only God is eternal. Time is a created construct but Jesus was there before all created things, so if Jesus was present before time existed He must be eternal, and only God is eternal.

“In Him all things hold together”, yet it is God who created and sustains the universe.

“In him all the fullness of God is pleased to dwell” How could anyone but God contain all the fullness of God?

This last point is reiterated in Colossians 2:9:

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,”

clearly indicates that Jesus is deity incarnate.

Hebrews 1:1-3

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”

Once again, Jesus was at the creation of the world and through Him the world was created. Jesus is the “exact imprint of His nature” speaks for itself. And finally once again it is Jesus who upholds the universe by His power, but that clearly in the OT was God’s role. This can only be true if Jesus is deity.

Hebrews 1:8-12

But of the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

10 And,

“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

God says to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.” God is calling His Son, God.

Then God claims that Jesus laid the foundation of the earth, so Jesus is the creator. And if the years of Jesus have no end, He is eternal…but only God is eternal.

Titus 2:13

13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

In the original Greek the section in bold type reads, “tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon” which literally is translated “To great God and Savior our.” Tou is the definite article, and hemon is the possessive pronoun, meaning that the words “great God and Savior” in between are to be treated as a single unit all referring to Jesus Christ. That is the original Greek grammar.

Philippians 2:5-7

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Jesus was in the form of God in his preincarnate state. This is not true of the angels. He was in the form of deity but emptied himself of his deity to take the form of man.

John 20:28

Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!”

This is Thomas’s confession after seeing Jesus for himself, and Jesus does nothing to stop him from worshiping him. In every instance where an angelic being is worshipped in the Bible, the angels stop the act because only God is to be worshipped. Jesus does nothing. Thomas’s words in the Greek, by the way, read “ho theos mou kai ho kyrios mou” or “the God of me and the Lord of me”.

Acts 5:3-4

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”

In this case Peter moves from seamlessly from accusing Ananias of lying to the Holy Spirit and lying to God. By lying to the Holy Spirit he was lying to God.

Romans 8:9-11

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Look at these verses! Paul moves from the “Spirit of God” to “the Spirit of Christ”, to simply “Christ”. Then he goes back to “spirit of Him” and “His spirit” which are both referring to the spirit of God. Do we have multiple spirits inside of us, or is Christ in us? Clearly the natural reading of the text is that all references are to same deity, yet Paul invokes multiple members of the Godhead because while they are all different persons, they are one God.

Finally, in the NT the person of God is referred to in Greek as “ho theos” which literally means “the God”, and is how the authors generally referred to God the father. The NT term in Greek that we see as Lord when referring to Christ is usually Kyrios. In the Septuagint, the translation in the OT for YHWH is kyrios. Now kyrios can also mean Lord as in master, but look at Romans 10:9-13

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The first “Lord” in verse 9 is Kyrios, repeated in verse 12. But then in verse 13 quoting the prophet Joel , Paul quotes Joel 2:32 an OT scripture where the word Lord is kyrios in the Septuigint translated from the original text in Hebrew which used the name of God YHWH! So Paul is saying that if you confess that Jesus is Lord/kyrios you will be saved because everyone who calls on the name of the Lord/kyrios/YHWH according to the OT prophet Joel will be saved. Paul is overtly stating that Jesus is kyrios and kyrios is YHWH.


Dear John,
To be clear, I said in my challenge to show me a quote in the Bible where Jesus says He is part of the trinity. But let’s look at what you have quoted.

I agree 100% with your comments here. It says that Jesus is of the same divine essence as God and together they created everything from the beginning, but only God is eternal. No mention of a trinity. It does clearly say that Jesus was the incarnation of the Son of God.

Peter is simply confirming that a sin against the spirit or any spirit is a sin against God.

This is a great example of the language used in the bible about having the spiritual essence of God in each of us, while at the same time distinguishing the uniquenesses of having the spirit of Jesus Christ in only His followers. Each one of us, has a piece of God in our soul and spirit, even Satan. Without this gift of eternal life, we all would die, so would Satan. The difference is clearly stated here: “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” If you do not believe in Jesus as your Shepard, your King, then you do not belong to Him, as Satan does not belong to Jesus.

Readers of the Bible confuse the word “spirit” too often to mean only Holy Spirit. But Romans 8 clearly states the difference between the spirt of God and that of Jesus, thus it is not speaking of the same essence.

If your criteria for evidence for the trinity is a “mention of a trinity” in the Bible, then I’m sure you’d agree it’s a waste of time for anyone to debate this topic with you.


Dear Laura
If you look at @Christy initial post, this was her point. In all of my posts I have shown that biblical evidence is against the trinity, thus making it man made. Therefore, not believing in the trinity should not put me and others outside of the core Christian message, that Jesus died for our sin and only through A belief in Him can we achieve eternal life. We need to love God, our neighbors and our enemies as ourself.

I hope I have shown that the trinity gets in the way of this core goal by taking to focus off of Jesus.
Best wishes, Shawn

HI Shawn,
I can appreciate the desire to keep the focus on Jesus. Christians are all capable of letting otherwise valuable doctrinal discussions take center stage, so thank you for that clarification.

We can all agree that the word “trinity” is not in the Bible, but if your position is that “the word ‘trinity’ is man made” is equal to “biblical evidence is against the trinity,” then I’d have to agree to disagree, as one does not follow from the other.


It takes more than being “an interpretation of the Bible” to qualify as Christianity. Christianity is a confessional religion. It has established doctrines and established boundaries.

It’s great that you embrace the “core Christian message.” But when you add a bunch of other stuff about the seven eternal beings that are the pagan gods, and Jesus is one of them, and pre-existent souls waiting to be born, and all the other extra-biblical stuff you believe, and you re-interpret central Christian doctrines to mean something other than what the Christian Church has always held based on the mystic experiences of some 20th century medium, you don’t have any room to criticize “man-made” doctrines.


Dear Christy,
The Christianity that you are saying is established wasn’t done so until the 4th century AD. What I present here has no single source, just those that were and are rejected by established religions. Yes, some of the sources are “mystical” as you may call, but Origen of Alexandria was the most prolific biblical scholar who specifically showed that Jesus is independent of God and denied the trinity. He and his followers were destroyed by the roman empire, the same power that gave us the inquisition.
Best Wishes, Shawn

I am very familiar with Church history and very comfortable with the process that was used to canonize the Bible and formalize the creeds.

Origen was a great scholar of the early church. His belief on the preexistence of souls was deemed unorthodox. And he never taught half the other the nutty stuff you believe. It is news to me that Origen “denied” the Trinity. He is considered a pioneer of Trinitarian theology, being the first to speak of three hypostases in one God and the first to use the term homoousios to speak of the relation between the Father and the Son, which was later incorporated in the Nicene creed.

The stuff about spirit beings who existed since the creation of the world and were imprisoned in material bodies because of the cooling of their love, or whatever, is not found in his extant writings and certainly was not considered Christian doctrine by those who came after him. All the church fathers were fallible people and no one of them is the measuring stick for truth.

Dear Christy,
Yes, little of Origen’s work survived his anathema, so there is little supporting material remaining for the Apocatastasis. But Jesus did say that His Word would never die, and this is what you label as coming from mystic sources. You would do the same if an OT Prophet appeared today and said they were speaking the world of God. But this is what Jesus promised! It is our responsibly to see if they come from God. (1 John 4) Why else would this have been written?
Best Wishes, Shawn

I believe in prophetic gifts. But when God speaks through people today, the message is tested by the Church against what has already been revealed and established. I don’t believe that the Bible promises new revelation that will overturn the teaching of the apostles. Quite the contrary actually. We are instructed to reject false teachers who come in the name of God with some other message.


Let me add that there is nothing in this tradition to say that God cannot speak to us with a personal message that adds to what is in the Bible. It is only that no authority has been given by God for us to preach these things to the world as something everyone must believe and follow – not in Christianity. Nor is this to say we cannot teach things upon a different authority such as objective evidence of science. In Christianity, the Bible is the only authority given into our hands for Christian belief and thus this is our standard and measure of what is acceptable for teaching Christianity to others.

Of course in a free society you are free to preach whatever religion you want, provided it meets some minimal standards of doing no measurable harm to others or in any other way violates the same liberties of others. But this includes the freedom to call out others for deception when they seek to subvert the religion of others by teaching their own beliefs under that name.

Dear Mitchell,
This is in conflict to what @Christy says above, which I totally agree with. It is not the church’s interpretation which Christy refers to because the Bible tells us how often the priests have corrupted the Word. The only reason for modern prophets is therefore to correct the false interpretations of the Words of Jesus made by men.

The portion you quoted

Was to underline Christy’s words…

Though to be sure, there is technically a dispute between Catholicism and Protestantism. The former giving authority to the church and the latter to the Bible alone. I have also made it clear elsewhere that I do not think the Bible is sufficient for the definition of “Christianity” but for that there is also the decision of the ecumenical council of Nicea 325 AD.

As for “corrections” to the interpretation of the Bible by modern day “prophets” like you have in the LDS and JW, that is what puts them outside of Christianity. If these were simply how they chose to understand the Bible and the Nicean creed instead of as a correction to them then I don’t think there would be any separation. This is not to say they would not be criticized as the denominations of Christianity do criticize each other.

But to be Christian, the Bible has to be accepted as the word of God requiring no corrections whether you call them “correct interpretations” or additional revelations and scriptures. In Christianity (defined by the early ecumenical councils), the only thing with authority for the teaching of Christian beliefs is the text of the Bible alone.

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So it seems that this has all been a charade. You don’t really care what the Bible says, just what your mythology claims.

Thanks alot.

Roger, this comment came after the 14 verses that I posted that show Jesus is not God and was given no biblical proof of the trinity. Also, 7 and 12 are the perfect numbers, not three. Three is a pagan number. That is where the comment came from.
Best wishes, Shawn

I teach math at a Christian school, and I was never warned about this! I may have to revise my curriculum now. What about ten? I’ve heard it said that the metric system is from Satan; but on the other hand … there are the ten commandments. There should be an indexable handbook of all this for future reference.

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More seriously, though, I’m curious what the more orthodox-minded readers here think of Richard Rohr’s view of the “Cosmic Christ” as he describes in this 30-minute youtube interview. Science (and the age of universe question) come up tangentially, which is frosting on the cake; but the main reason this connects in here for me is Rohr’s insistence that there is nothing that is not under Christ’s Lordship. “Everything belongs”, so to speak. Leaving theodicy issues around that to the side, it seems to me to be a solid answer to the nonsense of thinking that some numbers are special, others pagan, or that any kind of group is some how excluded from this universal reach.

But what do all of you think? Does Rohr miss the mark on how you view Christ or “Trinity”?

10 is the number of horns on the great dragon, the 10 fallen Elders and the 10 ribs we have not connected with the sternum (Jesus).

I knew it! And Dewey was a godless man too from what I hear - this explains his use of the decimal system. It’s all beginning to make sense.

If you do not understand the context then the answer would be no. But I think the truth is that this and the Catholic church in general is a great example of the freedom of personal diversity of thought within a fixed authoritative theological framework. This in particular is part of the more mystical traditions in Catholicism and the Franciscans in particular. There are a couple of parts which sound quite heretical…

  1. The idea of Christ incarnate in the cosmos from the big bang sounds an awful lot like a kind of Christianized pantheism. Though this isn’t the only line of thought in Christianity which goes in this direction. There is also the idea from scripture that God sustains our existence which puts us in mind of everything being a dream in the mind of a dreamer God. Perhaps we would need to ask Rohr directly to be sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he has a way of conforming what he says to orthodox doctrine and thus distinguishing what he means from pantheism which has some severe difficulties when it comes to theodicy.
  2. When Rohr said Jesus became the Christ, which sounds an awful lot like the adoptionism of the Moonies. But we must remember this is spoken rather than written and so that may not have been meant quite like that… not that Jesus changed at some point of His life to become God but that in being born the babe became that same Christ that Rohr sees incarnate in the cosmos.

On the whole there is much in what Rohr says which is very attractive to me, especially this idea of the universe being our first revelation from God. Though there is a couple of scientific inaccuracies such as a universe which is 14.5 billion years old rather than 13.8 billion – but this may simply be out of date information on his part. And there is the claim that the speed of light is the only physical constant which certainly isn’t correct. But perhaps you can say this just proves that science has issues with an orthodoxy of own too.

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