I believe this passage confirms that spiritual gifts have ceased and no longer occur in modern times. I really see no other way to interpret it. And it fits with the evidence also.
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It’s not that I am Pentecostal or anything, but I don’t really see convincing Scriptural support for that position either. There is only an ambiguous statement in 1 Corinthians 13, which refers just to tongues and prophecies. And even that reference could just be meant to describe what will cease to exist in Heaven versus love, hope, and faith which will remain forever. Beyond that, there is nothing to find in the whole Bible that can be even remotely suggestive of cessationism…
Many Christians of all denominations are still testifying of events such as miracles, demonic possession, and healings. Although many of the healing accounts should be taken with a grain of salt, I believe there are authentic healings being witnessed by critical people.
Modern Western societies seem to have less “activity” of bad spirits compared to, e.g., African societies. One might say that this is simply because of superstitions among Africans. But what do you think about the following alternative explanation? I am going to speculate here. In the West, many people completely reject spiritual realities and are thus in some way already trapped by Satan. If Satan is the criminal mastermind which the Bible holds him to be, he probably thinks carefully of where to send his troops. Sending his troops to perform demonic manifestations within Western societies would probably just lead to revive the belief in spiritual warfare among the general population which could indirectly lead people back to Jesus… So the most tactical thing for Satan to do would be to “lay low” and keep directly observable manifestations of demons to a minimum. Instead, he can keep up the disbelief of people in spiritual realities by working in more indirect ways to destroy society from within.
In African countries, this tactic doesn’t work because most people already believe that spiritual entities exist and are capable of manifestations (e.g., through possession). This means Satan can allow his soldiers to manifest directly within such societies, without harming the greater scope of his plans.
I am aware that this is all highly speculative, but you should never underestimate that serpent…
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That is all very well and good but the issue is the complete lack of evidence to suggest miracles and possession occur today. African tribes are an un-enlightened bunch that rev themselves into psychological frenzies that appear to be the result of a Demon. However they spend hours or days doing these ‘rituals’ and the person just basically breaks mentally. Western exorcisms are all fraud. Look at the people who were exorcised, they are never any better than they were before. More often than not they are in on the circus act.
No one claiming to be able to perform miracles works in a hospital. There are no cases of genuine miracles occurring in the World. Unlikely events do occur like people being cured of cancer inexplicably or people defeating an addiction… But these things also happen to Atheists and members of other belief systems too. It isn’t limited to Christians who prayed. No one who is prayed for fairs any better than anyone else.
I see it all the time, people attribute their lucky experiences or achievements to God and miracles… But there are always non-miraculous reasons behind them.
The worst part is that when someone doesn’t beat their cancer or addictions, the Christian who believes in modern miracles will simply say that God has a plan or perhaps they were too evil to save… Absurd. I have even read of people claiming that babies who died at birth must have been going to grow into evil people and so the World was spared from them… To those people, Hitler says hi.
What this shows is that only people who actually believe in demons, experience attacks from demons. So non-belief is an excellent defense against demons.
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I almost deleted your entire comment above, but I decided to cut you some slack. But for future reference, it deserved to be flagged.
This comes across as racist. Please don’t make any further insinuations about an entire continent being full of people too ignorant to accurately assess reality.
Um… no. Refrain from making Hitler associations with Christians you disagree with. This is always 100% inappropriate.
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I believe that Satan and his followers have been bound to some extent. In the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus talks about the strong man whose house could not be taken until he was bound. Jesus is referring to Satan and the evil ones. The question is: When will these spiritual beings be bound? If I were an amillennialist, I would say at Jesus’ first coming. If I were a postmillennialist, Satan is being bound more and more as the Gospel is spreading through the world. Premillennialists, whether they be historic premillennialists or dispensationalists, would say at the Second Coming of Christ when the millennial reign of Jesus begins. Historic Premillennialists also say that Satan is bound to some extent now. I believe that Christians cannot be possessed because we are the temples of the Holy Spirit; however, what about unsaved people? They do not have God’s Spirit within them; therefore, I must conclude that demon possession is still possible. Look at the Son of Sam in the 1970’s, the Boston Strangler, or Jack the Ripper. There was something demonic about these people. I must say that anyone who does not believe in miracles lacks something in faith. Why does our fellow companion keep coming back to miracles? I have seen too much in my time not to believe in these. Is this person trying to test the faith of others? Is there something driving him to do this? Is it his logic or is there something else driving him to return to this matter ? I wonder. I know there are modern miracles. I have seen them. Thomas, why do you keep taking about this subject? Isn’t there not something else more interesting? What is making you have so much doubt? You always come back to the same subject. Perhaps I am wrong, but I believe you want to cause doubt in others. It will not work with me. Also, let’s think about the Austrian gentleman you keep mentioning. Don’t you think there was something different about him? I have known people that knew him. They think I am right. Could it have been that he was demon possessed? Think about it!
Find_My_Way: This was meant for you. Would you like to respond? It was really not meant for Christy. What is your response Thomas. By the way, is Thomas your real name or does it refer to doubting Thomas in the Gospel of John?
If Jesus feels he needs to do the bidding of demons, even if that means fouling the water with 2000 bloated, putrid pig carcasses not to mention destroying the property of the owner of the pigs, that shows lack of authority and lack of foresight. Therefore, I don’t find your explanation very convincing.
btw, the Romans conducted a sort of crude biological warfare by throwing dead animals into wells.
You could say the same about people here. But I think you’ll find that belief in demon possession in Africa is correlated to a heartbreaking lack of resources and doctors to provide proper care for the mentally ill.
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You have not replied to my question above. I do expect an answer. Since you have doubts, are you trying to place doubts in the minds of others. Before you answer, read what I have written above. I want an answer.
Why would you say that it takes very little water to drown a pig? Pigs like water. They have to keep their skin moist to remain healthy. They will wallow in mud if necessary, but prefer water if it’s available. And they can swim.
True. But in a society with hardly any understanding or resources to deal with mental health, the mentally ill can be terribly abused by those sincere but misguided people who try to help with exorcism. Did you see my video above? In some countries the mentally ill are chained up for years in prayer camps.
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That’s precisely why people who believe in demons are potentially dangerous. The situation in Africa is particularly dire.
I raised hogs for many years. Call it reality. Especially when they have the aid of gravity.
By the way, the myth of healthy pigs injuring themselves and drowning when they try to swim is an old folk myth. Most can swim quite well. However, a hog experiencing a manic seizure which causes it to plunge into a body of water is another story. I’ve seen a number of animal species in states of mania, such as those caused by rabies, lead to plunges off ledges and even drowning through their own actions. Obviously, the Gospel account is not a Nature documentary about the normal habits of pigs. It describes very unusual circumstances. I have no idea why Beaglelady thinks that normal pig behavior would somehow settle the matter. It sounds like a another Argument from Personal Incredulity fallacy to go along with the many Argument from Negative Consequences fallacies in this thread.
In taking advantage of the same logic fallacy, I have decided to deny the Law of Gravity because it has led to bombs which have killed countless innocent people. It is a dangerous belief, so we had best abandon it. Of course, there is also the Ken Ham argument: If you don’t like something, declare there is no evidence and that’s that.
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Now that the Hitler card has been played, I’d say this exchange has hit bottom. No surprises there.
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I believe that it would be best for this topic to die. It seems that Thomas wishes to cause discontentment here. I can imagine him sitting in his home and laughing at the discussion.
You are correct. The Gospel account in my opinion is not myth; on the contrary, I believe it actually happened. If God can suspend natural laws, then Jesus can do what he did.
I believe you have a spiritual problem. May God help you.
Oh, I forget to answer this question:
Excellent question and one that has been debated for many centuries. Some theologians have said the hogs owners were Hellenized Jews in violation of Torah Law, and therefore in rebellion against God. (And thereby very eligible for losing that which they should never have had.) Others have said that, as the name might be thought to indicate, The Decapolis was a Greek area inhabited by Gentiles but that they raised hogs in order to sell the pork to Hellenized Jews who were in that state of defiance of the law. Others have written that even though this was an area inhabited by Gentiles, that habitation was an invasion of a land promised the Jews and therefore by raising hogs it compounded the defilement of the land.
Some commentators have even claimed that sending Legion into the pigs was an act of mercy because otherwise the demons would soon have harassed/oppressed other people in that area—or even re-inhabited the demoniac man just as Jesus talked about in Matthew 12:45 and Luke 11:26:
Then the spirit finds seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they all enter the person and live there. And so that person is worse off than before. That will be the experience of this evil generation.
Therefore, some have suggested that the demons were unaware of the fact that Jesus would grant their request but thereby destroy them in such a way that they couldn’t harass anyone ever again.
Under that interpretation, to complain about someone losing their living versus people being spared terrible oppression for years and years to come, the complaint brings to mind some of Jesus’ conversations with the rabbis who hassled Jesus because he was doing good deeds on the sabbath and therefore doing wrong, even though his good deeds meant the end of terrible sufferings.
So perhaps it comes down to whether one cares most about drowning hogs or suffering people.
Finally, let’s take a look at this logic:
OK. Why would anybody say it takes very little water to drown a human? (Ya know, like pediatricians warn parents of young children, and as physicians warn people who are prone to seizures and thereby known to drown in bathtubs.) After all, people like water. Also, people like to use water-based lotions to keep their skin moist in order to keep it healthy. People will even visit beaches and build swimming pools. People clearly love water if it’s available to them! And they can swim.
Yes, by that logical examination of the relationship of humans to water, I have successfully demonstrated that humans would not drown and could not drown in some body of water—whether a permanent geographic feature or a seasonal one—even if afflicted by mania and seizures! And surely that logical analysis settles the matter.
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