Read again what Jesus said.
Those who knew what Jesus said and did not believe, they will be judged by those very words.
Believe Jesus and what the Father said through Him and live or trust in man who is like the grass of the field, that will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Jesus said,“why do you call me Lord , Lord and do not do (or believe not) what I say.”
The disrespect of Jesus in this world is overwhelming.
Here would be two different views of a flat earth:
Egyptians: the earth was a flat table. The sun would be on the top side of the table during the day. At night the sun would be under the table. The “god” of the sun would have to fight beings living under the table all night. If the “god” lost, the sun would not return in the morning. The east and west had an end. Only the sun “god” knew where the ends of this flat earth were.
Hebrews: the earth was a flat disc, it is not a disc, but that is their interpretation. The sun and moon had courses in the sky. The arc would be extended out from the north pole “star”. So the sun and moon followed the pattern like a disc or today’s, clock. So going from east to west, there would never be an end. There was no “table” edge. Using the north pole as the center of a circle one could travel east or west and still return to a start position, but one would never come to an end position.
For today’s globe, since the earth is flat, the north pole would still be the same as the Hebrew thought process. The continents do form a circular ring around the actual north pole. Antarctica is actually a single land rim that forms a square perimeter along all four sides of a cube. There is an area below this earth, where beings do exist. There is an area above called heaven where angels exist. They are called stars. This is a closed system, and is 7000 years old. The Flood did not form all, nor can explain all age phenomenon. There were perfect sons of God terraforming the earth for 2500 years. They played with floods over and over again because there was no rain. They moved water around by other means. The Flood of Noah destroyed those beings, and buried all their terraforming projects.
All the movement of the continents and mountains we see today, happened in the 1500 years after the flood. While this was going on after the Flood, the Mediterranean Sea formed. It also emptied and refilled 7 times. This led to an influx and outflow of different human populations in the middle east , southern Europe, and North Africa many times. By the time Jesus lived, geographic and geological conditions had settled down. Only volcanic and the rumblings of earthquakes remained.
Jesus said at the end of the current 2000 year period, the earth would start a change process again more frequently. This prediction has been happening the last 300+ years. Scientists today can observe change, thus giving them proof, change can happen. As for how it happened in the past can only be conjecture. Neither YEC, nor OEC can use today’s state as evidence of a steady state, nor use a one time Flood to disprove or prove a fact.
So you believe that people who don’t believe in a literal 6 day creation are ones who did not listen and will be judged as in destroyed in hell?
You seem to like to create interesting data points lol.
So how about this.
Do you agree that Jesus was learning essentially the same genesis 1-11 as we have in our bibles today?
If Jesus was reading and teaching the same version then we can presume he was also using their language to relate to what he was saying?
Do you want to go line by line through genesis and see what it says vs what it does not say to see if there if a possible understanding that harmonizes another view besides a literal six day creationist view?
Jesus was the person who told Moses what to write in Genesis. Jesus was the Word that spoke creation into being. Jesus was God. I do not see where God allowed Genesis 1 not to say exactly what was always written.
Salvation comes from accepting God’s Atonement in the restoring of Adam’s condition brought on by Adam’s disobedience. We do not need science to prove anything. That is what God’s Word is for. Now can Satan decieve to the point the truth cannot be discerned? It is possible. We can decieve our own self with our own thoughts and desires.
Perhaps I am too greatly influenced by the Worldview of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who considered evolution in the Noosphere (the realm of Ideas) as having a greater influence on humankind’s future then evolution in our (bio)genes. Thus, I am in agreement with the evangelical view that the Bible, including the Old Testament, should be studied with great care since it has had such a great influence in the direction taken by Western Civilization. No literature comes even close on the matter of influencing the Noosphere in which we live. For centuries humans have wrestled with the problems this presents (as I have), and I trust that some of the contributors to this forum will shine some light on where I have ‘gotten lost’.
I believe it is reasonable to consider both th NT & OT as inspired. As @NickolaosPappas. @Laura, & @Christy have stated, there are quite different interpretations that still that can be considered as ‘inspired’. The problem I have goes deeper than that. I believe that it is possible that the authors of some passages (even some books) may have had some “agenda” that was not only Uninspired, but actually harmful in that they created ‘memes’ that have lived on far into the future. Surely some of these were submitted to the church fathers who decided what was to be considered Canonical–and these were discarded. But could one or two have slipped through? How would we know?
In recent posts I have indicated that the latter part of the story of Lot shows the author had ‘an axe to grind’ against the Moabites. What better way to take revenge than to incite future generations into consider Moabite society (Palestinian now) as founded upon incest. I would like to believe that God would make sure that this could NOT happen–just like I thought the Holocaust could not happen. But it is up to frail, faulty humankind to bring about His Kingdom, and it takes only a few “rotten apples” (even when they believe they are well-intentioned) to cause havoc–especially if they succeed in writing the history that guides the future.
Al Leo
I disagree with many statements.
The word became flesh. The word ties back to genesis when God spoke. God said this and that and created this and that. That’s how the myth explains it. Jesus, that same word, became flesh when God through the Holy Spirit conceived him in mary. Jesus did not exist prior to that. The word did. Not Jesus.
Scripture does not replace science. Scripture is made up of an assortment of fictional and nonfictional literary styles to explain messages to mankind. Literary analysis shows that the writing style in genesis 1-11 is very different from narratives taking on a more literal and historical approach.
For example consider this verse.
Job 5:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 “He gives rain on the earth
And sends water on the fields,
There are two ways we can look at this.
God sends rain by will and science can’t explain it. He just sends it and it goes. He controls every single cloud. Our actions don’t make any difference. When we destroy forests it does nothing to affect clouds and rain.
Rain and rain clouds can be predicted through scientific means. We have meteorologist who can study weather patterns. We can see how climate change affects weather patterns and we can even generate concepts on El Niño and La Niña weather patterns.
If we have free will, then it means we can make
Choices that results in climate change. Meaning our actions helped determine the weather in a way. If it’s completely in Gods control then free will does not affect weather and ect… just is sloppy and makes no sense.
I do find it difficult though. Since the OT is written by Isralites who had prophets directly speaking with God i would have not imagine such a complexity on these stories to the point when you cant literally understand if the the context is literal or not
If I am understanding you correctly, I believe you are calling the Genesis Creation account a myth. If that is what you mean, would you please explain if a man created this myth or did God. And if it is a myth, that man created it has no value. If God made up this myth what was He trying to tell us that He couldn’t say in a straight forward manner.
If you weren’t calling it a myth i apologize for misunderstanding.
All scripture is inspired by God.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
So the first thing is to realize that God has to speak to humanity in a way we can understand. He had to use visions of things we understand or use a language that we can understand which means words tied to their definition. When we say something is inspired, it does not mean that something was controlled.
God inspiring scripture within a human is not the same things as God taking control of a human and them carrying out some sort of automatic handwriting. After all we see the different writing styles throughout scripture showcasing an aspect of the writers personality, education, and worldview. So the inspired genesis myth was wrote by God and man.
A argument often brought up with scripture concerning this is why can’t God just speak plainly. Well he can but he clearly chooses not too multiple times.
We have visions that require mediation to understand. We have the books of poetry where art is expressed through visualization of the words and we have Jesus speaking in parables and lastly we have the book of revelation which is very symbolic. So a mythological approach to a truth is very much within Gods character. Genesis 1-11 is littered with them. Such as when it says God came down to inspect the world as the Tower of Babel was being built. Well we know that heaven is not actually up above us. You can’t fly there. It’s not beyond the clouds or universe. So why did God chooses the phase “ To come down” if not to simply convey a truth through the ancient persons worldview.
Genesis 1-11 is about may things. It’s setting up the introduction to the biblical themes and patterns we see all the way through the gospels and epistles. Just like how the words flowing out into space for Star Wars sets up theme for the movie and series.
And just as importantly as what he was conveying to us is what he was not. He was not giving up a scientific and historical behind the scenes of how the universe came into being and how humanity came into being and ect…
You may enjoy reading my last post in the Race thread that is now active. It is a reply to Gregoreite.
I read it and it’s similar to what you stated before. It still to me seems to have absolutely no bearing on of genesis was a historical and scientific explanation or if it was an ahistorical and mythological story.
We refer to things that we don’t believe was real all the time. We say he’s strong as Hercules and ect… or refer to characters from films or quotes by fictional characters in stories. Referring back to something has no bearing on if the person believed it was literal or not. Especially when it’s the story that is setting up the biblical patterns.
To do that we must refer back to the story. When you compare actual historical accounts throughout the Torah with the creation mythology we see very distinct writing styles and attention to detail. We also see holes throughout the story that exists if someone takes it as literal. Not only between genesis 1 and 2 but issues concerning Cain, Abel, and Seth and so on.
It’s all logomancy once rationality is dispensed with.
I agree. But what about the parts when God stays silent? Just as the Lot incident in my other post?
I guess I’m not sure what you’re asking.
God is silent for the majority of the time. We also see examples of many of the people God picked as his prophets and apostles being very human and that includes really messing up and sometimes being crappy.
On moral issues. Like you say and i agree that the bible is inspired by God. But for example in the Lot incident God is silent. He doesnt codemns it neither approves. Only a few verses later he forbids incestous relationships
That’s a impossible question to answer honestly. The story most likely does not contain every word spoken. Plus, the story itself contains the elements to let you know something wrong happened. It’s clearly portraying that it’s wrong of them to have gotten their father drunk and then raped them.
The story is further highlighted by events.
The father was going to sacrifice his daughters to evil men to be raped essentially. Angels then destroy the town with fire and brimstone after they escape.
The daughters then mistreat their father and get him drunk and rape him each getting pregnant.
One of the daughters that are pregnant gives birth to a child that becomes the Moabite nation which ironically is known for sacrificing their first born to evil gods by burning therm to death.
The story as it continues throughout scripture paints a picture of everything Lot lost.
He was wealthy in a big town and ended up in a cave outside a small town. His legacy went to crap as his descendants became evil, unloving, and eventually destroyed. A nation where the first born was cursed to die instead of blessed to receive great inheritance.
So even though God was mostly silent, the story was not.
Most of the material in Genesis reflects the beliefs of the Horite Hebrew, Abraham’s people. Judaism actually rejects those beliefs. We discuss these matters in a scholarly way at the FB group the Bible and Anthropology.
How? Its in their Torah . How do they reject it?
These myths eh?
Could have been true. Both the flood and the characters of course. Some of then are historical like Moses but thats after the flood. Sure it might not have been a worlwide flood drowning the world but maybe it happened somewhere in middle east
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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