Atheism & Theism Compared

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Scientific proof of God you’re not going get. Reasonable evidence you already have.

[T_aquaticus]

@Dale

Reasonable evidence you already have.

Ultimately, discussions like these do come down to what types of evidence are reasonable.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

There is still the matter of bias, intrinsic or otherwise, reasonable or otherwise, and openness to the facts on the ground.

[T_aquaticus]

@Dale

There is still the matter of bias, intrinsic or otherwise, reasonable or otherwise, and openness to the facts on the ground.

There sure is.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

Yep. Maybe it’s time for a reprise of the some of the ‘facts on the ground’, the reality of some the objective evidence for God’s providential interventions into the lives of his children for the new and uninitiated, accessible here, the first case a scientist and resulting in her new faith, and the second a successful business leader (the CEO of Lenox high end dinnerware and gifts!), already a Christian, resulting in a change in his life’s direction (not altogether willingly at first!).

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@T_aquaticus

The burden of proof does lie with theists.

Nope. The burden of proof lies with anyone expecting other people to agree with them. So yeah, when theists are the majority and act like there is something wrong with atheists for believing differently then the burden of proof lies with them. But the same applies in reverse situations where atheists are the majority and act like something is wrong with religious people for believing differently than they do.

@T_aquaticus

Paraphrasing Steven Weinberg, with or without religion we would have bad people doing bad things and good people doing good things.

And we both know that he was wrong. Any kind of ideology whether religious or not can get good people to do evil things. Certainly communism proved that even an atheist ideology can do that.

[Randy]

@mitchellmckain

Certainly communism proved that even an atheist ideology can do that.

Wasn’t communism formed in reaction to a very real abuse by the ruling class? In some ways, the lesson seems to be also, in part, that any ideology born out of victimization (consider the Puritans, Spanish Inquisition after the Reconquista, and even the Nazis after the WWI humiliation and poverty, etc) can become tyrannical. Thanks

I had a Marxist friend in med school who told me Jesus and the early Christians were Marxists. To a certain extent, he had a point! The Dutch Communists also spearheaded a 300,000 person protest to protect the Jews.

February strike

Thanks.

[ucarr (Uriah Carr)]

All Christians pray, don’t they? If a Christian never talks to God, I can’t see how such person is different from atheist.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Randy

Wasn’t communism formed in reaction to a very real abuse by the ruling class? In some ways, the lesson seems to be also, in part, that any ideology born out of victimization (consider the Puritans, Spanish Inquisition after the Reconquista, and even the Nazis after the WWI humiliation and poverty, etc) can become tyrannical.

You mean like the civil rights movement? LOL

I certainly think an ideology can make good people do bad things just as Stephen Weinberg claimed religions can do.

@Randy

I had a Marxist friend in med school who told me Jesus and the early Christians were Marxists.

That would be quite a trick nearly two millennia before Marx existed. LOL No. A case might be made for them being communist in the sense of living communally. But there wasn’t one iota of Marxist theory in their thinking. And they did not even rebel against the social order. Does the Bible even call slaves to take up arms against their masters for liberation? No. Liberation theology is crock!

@Randy

The Dutch Communists also spearheaded a 300,000 person protest to protect the Jews.

I don’t doubt it. Have you read Lenin’s “What is to be Done?” It was a Leninist strategy for the communist party to support any popular cause in order to build a power base, lying their butts off about their real ultimate goals. And first to be slaughtered would be these very same idealistic dupes who proved themselves brave enough to stand up for what is right. And what was the treatment of Jews in communists regimes?

[Randy]

All good points. I got a bit carried away. All i was musing about really was how we can go astray…victims can be blind. As Corrie TenBoom wrote, Satan’s lie can be that we have been hurt, so we have no responsibility or faults.

I did not know that about Lenin. Interesting! Thanks. I am sure everyone has reasons, good and bad.

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

I said some humans don’t want to talk to God, not some Christians.

[ucarr (Uriah Carr)]

This is to T_aquaticus,

Since you don’t talk to creation as a whole, can I conclude you have no conscious relationship with creation as a whole?

[ucarr (Uriah Carr)]

Do you confirm or deny the following assertion,

In the life of many humans, coming-of-age entails a dawning awareness of infinite values. Moreover, one of the chief awakenings appears as awareness of the world as an engulfing whole. Consequently, the conscious path through life of an individual usually gets shaped by his/her perceived relationship to the world as a whole.

If there’s a germ of truth in the above, then, for many humans, there is no escape from a conscious relationship to the world as a whole. That relationship can be characterized by the decision to retreat from engagement with the world as a whole, but, nonetheless, it is a conscious relationship to the world as a whole.

[Randy]

@ucarr

Since you don’t talk to creation as a whole, can I conclude you have no conscious relationship with creation as a whole?

I am confused. How does one talk to the cosmos?

[beaglelady]

@ucarr

Since you don’t talk to creation as a whole, can I conclude you have no conscious relationship with creation as a whole?

I don’t talk to creation as a whole. What would be the point? It sounds like a musical or opera. What do you say to creation? And what does it say back to you?

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

I agree that coming of age involves a search for identity and a meaningful place in the world. I’m just counter-asserting that not all humans perceive their world as including God, and are content to find their identity and place among other humans. I say that has a Christian. I don’t think non-believers are deficient in humanity, consciousness, or maturity because they don’t desire to commune with God.

[beaglelady]

@Randy

Wasn’t communism formed in reaction to a very real abuse by the ruling class? In some ways, the lesson seems to be also, in part, that any ideology born out of victimization (consider the Puritans, Spanish Inquisition after the Reconquista, and even the Nazis after the WWI humiliation and poverty, etc) can become tyrannical. Thanks

That’s true. And people will rally behind anything that seems to promise relief from their misery. And countries can go from the hell of a right-wing dictator to the hell of a left-wing dictator, as was the case in Cuba.

[T_aquaticus]

@mitchellmckain

The burden of proof lies with anyone expecting other people to agree with them. So yeah, when theists are the majority and act like there is something wrong with atheists for believing differently then the burden of proof lies with them.

We agree. I also agree that no one has to justify their personal beliefs to other people.

@mitchellmckain

But the same applies in reverse situations where atheists are the majority and act like something is wrong with religious people for believing differently than they do.

I don’t think there is something wrong with people for having religious beliefs. I think it is a completely normal thing for humans to do.

@mitchellmckain

And we both know that he was wrong. Any kind of ideology whether religious or not can get good people to do evil things. Certainly communism proved that even an atheist ideology can do that.

That was the second part of the quote, but Weinberg used “religion” instead of “ideology”.

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”–Steven Weinberg

I much prefer ideology to religion in this comparison, so we definitely agree on that point.

[Terry_Sampson]

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@MarkD

I used to think about the same but now I have no confidence anyone means exactly the same thing when they speak of gods, either within or without organized religion.

Well, yeah! That was my thought at 12 yo in that year at a Catholic school with everyone asking me if I believed in God. I replied, “I think the question isn’t whether God exists but, what is God.” It seemed only rational for me to accept that when people talked of “God” they were talking about something that exists. The only question was, what was this thing the word was referring to. Was it only a character in a story, Paul Tillich’s ground of being, Einstein’s notion of a natural order, or a thinking feeling person with whom we could have a relationship?

@MarkD

I don’t think there is any kind of bodiless entity who maintains a pipeline to everyone’s most intimate thoughts and feelings and occasionally grants favors in an untraceable manner. I see no reason to believe that. But I do think we all have a pipeline to something more within, albeit not necessarily something all powerful or all knowing, and most likely not something person like in the way that we are persons.

Most would say that puts you in the atheist category, I think.

@MarkD

It would probably be best not to treat God belief as an empirical matter, and any description of what we believe it to be should probably be prefaced with “it is as though …” to acknowledge the futility of reducing it to any set of explicit facts.

It is as though… there is a bodiless entity who maintains a pipeline to everyone’s most intimate thoughts and feelings and occasionally grants favors in an untraceable manner.

I just HAD to try that out. LOL