Animals and morality (part 2)

Considering that we start off in heaven, how does the chimp leave heaven?

I don’t believe the chimp “starts off in heaven”. Please don’t ask me to answer why, let’s just agree that we disagree, I don’t want to argue about biblical verses.

it is nothing to do with bible verses, just with logic and coherent thinking.

Yes it does. I’m talking about the literal heaven that many people will go to after the 2nd coming of Jesus and the judgment. The heaven in which there’ll be literally no pain, no diseases, no unrighteousness, no death. That’s the heaven I want to talk about.

Sounds like the “heaven” which turned Buffy into a basket case.

Life is about growth and learning and learning means making mistakes and experiencing pain.

What you describe is more like the great and wonderful promise of heavenly ever-after by all the atheists – simple nonexistence… sweet sweet nothing.

Not interested. And frankly, I would even send a rat to a place that torturously boring.

Yeah, I believe in something quite different. Hell is where you can expect your heart’s desire. And if you think that sounds good then you don’t comprehend the depravity of the human heart. No, that is a pot for boiling frogs. Heaven is where you can expect what God desires for us – and I don’t think that is even a tiny bit comfortable. I think you can expect a long painful surgical operation removing those sins of yours – a place where you will become stronger, greater, and Christ-like – not a wimpy basket case.

Just to clarify, I was talking to dominic and hoped it would lead him to similar conclusion - but then I also annoyed my teachers by answering questions not meant for me earning me the comment “ist etwas vorlaut”. :slight_smile:

I think both, @Jay313 and yourself seem to miss the point of the language but Jay picked up on the point in part that I was wanting Dominic to consider, a point that both, Jay and yourself completely failed which is why you got so heated about one another, the ability to identify the self. As you both can see, language is useless without a mind that can not correctly locate the self in relation to a context. And without acting from the understanding of the self one can not blame “one self” - or “two selfs”…

There are people who live without physical pain and they are definitively not in heaven for it. To those who are one with God, such as Jesus there is no pain etc and no death, as they are at one with eternity. This is why I can be in heaven already and why death has lost it’s sting. I have to admit, having been to the edge has helped to bring things in perspective. To be not in heaven , e.g. not with God requires to separate yourself from him. Tell me how an animal is going to do that.

People, I’m not here to argue about what heaven is. I’m here so someone can explain to me some things. If you don’t believe in the heaven I said then you can’t go on with this conversation and shouldn’t (because we’d be arguing different things). I want someone who believes in this heaven I believe in to reply to me and make some things clear.
@John_Bauer please explain to me firstly what you mean by covenant relationship. The only thing I know is that Adam and Eve were in paradise and received a command from God. How exactly does this make them from now on accountable for sins in general? You believe that by being given the Holy Spirit they then started knowing God’s will and that they shouldn’t go against it or else they’d become sinners? If so, what about those who existed outside of Eden and didn’t receive God’s Holy Spirit? And what about the fact that according to Romans 1:18-20 it seems (as I see it) that humans can understand God’s will on their own without having the Holy Spirit, and are thus capable of sinning? What is your take in this? (Note: my point was about them being naturally able to believe in God that made them capable of sinning if they did something bad, but you seem to be suggesting something different).

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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