I think that is an overstatement and an extrapolation backwards with respect to the Godhead, and it leaves something out too.
…the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
The Son was in eternity past lovingly subordinate to the Father, not by coercion or voluntarily simply because he in love chose to provide some service.
Amen to that though!
The parent-child relationship comes to mind, and I like watching evangelical egalitarians handle Ephesians 6:1-4.
I agree with most that Paul subverted the institution of slavery as well as anyone possibly could. I am also appalled by how the church handled the slave trade which later began in Portugal. I’m intrigued by how Genovese apparently found in southern slavery, a patriarchal system that did not arise elsewhere. I was also surprised to hear the tone of Mark Noll’s voice in speaking about slavery and how “the approach in reading the Bible common in American Protestantism — an approach that relied on simplistic proof-texts — has repeatedly crippled attempts to deal with complex social and political problems.”
That would indeed be one of the go-to passages for ‘egalitarians’ I suppose, as it seems indifferent on the subject of whether it should be mothers or fathers who receive honors - it’s a beacon of mutuality compared to some other proof texts that are usually rounded up. The submission of children to adults is a necessary thing (for the children). So the fact that a parent is in charge over their children (or that God is in charge over all of us) - those are just necessary realities rather than power-plays. Sure - call it ‘heirarchy’ if you want, and certainly there do exist too many parents who abuse it as such and turn it into a power game; but that isn’t the context egalitarians are usually concerning themselves with as they are looking more at culturally perpetuated sexual or racial inequalities.
Yes, but Ephesians 6:1-4 comes in the middle of Ephesians 5:21-6:9. If submitting to one another looks the same in both directions as egalitarians claim between a husband and wife, or a master and slave, then it must look the same between a parent and child.
I would argue that submission Paul is speaking of is not absolute. As in a child does not need to submit to an abusive parent. But this is a complicated subject.
Agreed. Certainly in a human context. It is a subject fraught with cultural landmines to be sure.
Sounds like a lot of theological/philosophical babble based on faulty assumptions about the nature of scripture and improper hermeneutics that don’t account for the large number of biblical errors, broken worldview and full accommodation of the text. Theologians like to force fit.
I would love to see a competent systematic theologian who recognizes most of the OT is fiction and that even a very high percentage of the gospels themselves did not happen as narrated. Someone who fully understands that scripture corrects itself, contradicts itself, was falsely attributed to people who didn’t write it (like countless other non-biblical works), has redemptive trajectories inside and even some later material that goes against them.
It would be nice to see a theologian who appreciates the most basic and established findings of biblical criticism come up with a hermeneutic and methodology for justifying a view like “eternal subordination.” Grudem isn’t it. If you don’t incorporate biblical criticism correctly I can’t imagine how your theology can work. We need to understand and approach our source material correctly.
I just barely come to grips with a Trinity in the NT. I’m not really sure it’s even right. It’s not patently obvious to me Jesus thought that nor is all of the teaching on Jesus entirely consistent to me. The four gospels certainly don’t just supplement one another with facts the others missed. To go beyond the trinity and start talking about the “eternal subordination” of a member of the triune Godhead and such highly specialized doctrines is to attempt to get more out of scripture than it can actually give us. At least the Catholics have tradition and authority, whether imagined or real, to bolster the abuses of “sola scripture” all these theologians seem to make.
Vinnie
I can appreciate where you are coming from, and often say reasonable people can disagree about the inspiration of Scripture and what that entails for the text.
Ironically, one of my favorite NT scholars who can address many of the critical issues you raise, but not all of them, is egalitarian.
Who is the scholar?
Craig Keener. Love the guy. Like in a way I don’t appreciate for other theologians.
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