Then we agree. It’s fiction, never to be realized in fact.
That cancer always kills. That something could grow inside a creature that was not a foetus.
That parasitism could actually be useful. That symbiosis could be evolved from parasitism.
That what you think you know might be incomplete!
Richard
Why? Doesn’t it have no parts? And if it cannot be built piece by piece then where does it come from? Are you saying that Babies are conceived with such things already supplied by egg or sperm with all they will ever have of this “system” when they are grown up?
Maybe that is because everything they have ever seen is made of things that can be repurposed.
They are not made of matter? What atom do you imagine to be usable for one thing only?
I don’t have any such preconceptions.
No. A baby is basically a parasite until birth. It lives off its mother.
And that is my whole point!
Oh yeah, I have heard that two of the ear bones are re-purposed jaws. That is reaching at best.
Basically there are too many systems in the Universe to try and pick out the one that any particular person will believe is irreducible. So, you either assume there isn’t any (which is convenient) or you look around at the perfection of ecosystems and biological systems and realise that they are very interdependent. irreducibility soon follows.
So IC might mean ID? Aw diddums!
Richard
One of the requirements for the ID is they/it has been around for the entire history of life on this planet and have been monkeying around with DNA for most of that history. While I guess, thinking sci-fi here, it could be a alien life form, most of the ID folks who accept the great age of the earth are thinking supernatural (creationism).
I never mentioned ID until it was brought up. I deliberately avoided it. It was one of the preconceptions I was hoping to bypass.
The thing is, we limit our thoughts to what we see now. What if there are things, systems, transformations, that occurred in history that are so slow that they are not perceivable to us Evolution relies on those processes. So open your mind to possibilities instead of closing it to me.
Richard
The only people who propose IC are ID folk. So why mention it?
Certainly don’t agree with this.
So propose something that might be possible. Passing cancer on to future generations doesn’t count as possible.
Thanks to this who have participated so far and given me a chance. If you could persuade some of the Anti-Richard brigade to take a look and comment it might be nice but I am not expecting miracles (here)
Richard
I am still trying to make sense of the claim that something is irreducible. What does it mean? You say it means it cannot be built piece by piece, but everything we have IS built piece by piece as we grow from a zygote.
And how does this happen? Because there are genes which provide the blueprint for making complex molecules. And we know that these genes can be changed by various means thus changing one of the complex molecules which are produced. It is very unlikely to produce a cancer, the possible effects of altering one molecule in the mix is endless. I can certainly imagine that some alterations of some of the molecules can be deadly.
And notice that none of this is ANYTHING like the machines we make with gears and circuits all with their fixed places and required connections.
Forget it, If you won’t try I am not interested. Either take it as writ or leave me alone.
Richard
Aw come on. Is it really such a foreign concept? You take a part out of an engine and try and put it into another manufacturer’s engine. Chances are you will have to adapt it. The idea of a specific part for a specific piece of machinery is not unheard of. All irreducible means is that the parts are useless unless joined to the others of the system. And the system needs all its parts to function. Take out one wire and the whole car stops. Ok so that wire may be universal, but there are some critical parts that are not.
Richard
Behe defines IC as
I think you are working with a different definition.
I pointed out a glaring problem with you cancer example and notice you have yet to address it.
Edit to add:
What you are proposing in your OP is the evolution of a new system that supplants an existing system but you don’t want to accept the simpler explanation that a system simply evolves. So where did the existing system come from? In your model everything had to evolve twice. How is this an improvement?
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I love the science fiction and fantasy genres with parallel universes, Middle Earth, Krypton, and the like, but at the end of the day I acknowledge that they are not real.
Now we’re once again stuck in La Brea Tar Pits!
Sure, but like I explained above that is NOT how biological systems work.
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But isn’t playing in the tar fun!
Irreducible Complexity is an idea that comes from the world of Intelligent Design. It’s basically a God-of-the-gaps argument–we can’t explain this so that must be where God stepped in! But all their examples of IC systems (e.g. the bacterial flagellum) have been refuted. They all have precursors. The theological problem with God-of-the-gaps thinking is that the gaps have been relentlessly shrinking over time. It turns God into a pathetic, desperate cockroach who must keep finding a new place to hide with every scientist discovery.
I got to see these ID people (Behe, Dembski) debate (Ken Miller, Robert Pennock) at the Intelligent Design Debate at the American Museum of Natural History. It was quite an experience.
No that is exactly the system. Otherwise, why would I call it IC?
The existing system evolved normally and the second system is an improved (more complex) system. That is an improvement!.
Just because you do not want to see IC does not mean it does not exist.
Same applies to you. You just don’t want it to exist. Can’t you see I am actually giving you an answer> Instead of you having to reject it? (Because you do not want there to be ID either and you think they are interlinked)
Perhaps you need to look at Nature a bit closer., She is much more complex than you give her credit for.
Perhaps if people would lay aside their prejudices and preconceptions both about IC but also Cancer and even parasitism?
Oh, never mind. I guess it’s too much to ask. Forget it. Just leave me as being one can short of a six pack
Richard
Point of order, it is through genetic predisposition. A prime candidate being breast cancer,