A challenge to you evolutionists! if you are successful then i will accept evolution!

(John Nickleson) #1

Can you please provide two examples of observed speciation, in which COMPLETE reproductive isolation has occured and hybrids are sterile. Two conditions: 1) No polyploidy or hybrid speciation 2) Don’t just link to the talk.origins FAQ on speciation. All the examples listed, not a single example of COMPLETE REPRODUCTIVE ISOLATION has been obsereved. Don’t beleive me, look here: http://www.discovery.org/f/8411.

(Peaceful Science) #2

Asian and african elephants.

Mice and rats.

Humans and chimpanzees.

Chimpanzees and orangutans.

But I am not an evolutionist. My worldview is not based on evolution, but on Jesus.

(T J Runyon) #3

Just to be clear here. What you are asking for is an example of observed allopatric speciation? Also curious why you must be given an example of this to accept evolutionary theory?

(John Nickleson) #4

It seems like the best evidence there could be. Yes that is what I want.

(T J Runyon) #5

Or just a speciation event where the new species can’t interbreed with its ancestor?

(John Nickleson) #6

That would be great as well

(T J Runyon) #7

I’ll see what I can dig up. But it also feels like an unreasonable request. Witnessing reproductive isolation in such a short time? Idk. But I’ll take a look

(John Nickleson) #8

Alright thank you.

(Peaceful Science) #9

Do you think Asian and african elephants share a common ancestor or not?

(John Nickleson) #10

If I accept evolution then yes, but that was not documented

(Peaceful Science) #11

So do you believe in a young or old earth? Do you think there was both asian and african elephants on the Ark?

(T J Runyon) #12

I think it’s the “observed” part that is holding him back. Unless we actually saw the speciation event and the new distinct species achieve reproductive isolation from its ancestral one he won’t accept it

(John Nickleson) #13

That is true

(Peaceful Science) #14

Then he should have no problem answering:

Casey Luskin, who is the author of the linked article, would say that African and Asian elephants share a common ancestor. So he already affirms that this is possible by natural processes. The argument is disingenuous from a YEC, though it might be reasonable from an OEC.

I have a feeling this is just a classic and dishonest gotcha game. Even YEC’s affirm that this is possible.

That is the problem too. This is not a rational reason to affirm evolution. Even YECs affirm this.

Which is a key point. We do not expect from evolutionary theory to observe this frequently if at all on directly observable time frames. Neither do YECs, which is why they still affirm that elephants share a common ancestor.

(T J Runyon) #15

Just bare with me. I’m not dodging your request. I’ll get back to it. But I’m assuming you accept plate tectonics and the existence of subatomic particles. Why are you holding evolutionary theory to a higher standard and burden of proof than atomic theory?

(T J Runyon) #16

@T_aquaticus know of any examples that can meet his standards?

(Christy Hemphill) #17

Hmm. I’m betting you have already decided that no example exists that will fit your criteria and you think it is fun to watch people fruitlessly play your little game. So, I’d say no thanks. If not accepting all the real and compelling evidence for evolution is intellectually fulfilling for you, then by all means carry on with your present worldview. None of us here needs the validation of your “conversion” in order to feel secure about our own perspective. :slight_smile:


"While studying the genetics of the evening primrose, Oenothera lamarckiana, de Vries (1905) found an unusual variant among his plants. O. lamarckiana has a chromosome number of 2N = 14. The variant had a chromosome number of 2N = 28. He found that he was unable to breed this variant with O. lamarckiana. He named this new species O. gigas"

"Dobzhansky and Pavlovsky (1971) reported a speciation event that occurred in a laboratory culture of Drosophila paulistorum sometime between 1958 and 1963. The culture was descended from a single inseminated female that was captured in the Llanos of Colombia. In 1958 this strain produced fertile hybrids when crossed with conspecifics of different strains from Orinocan. From 1963 onward crosses with Orinocan strains produced only sterile males. Initially no assortative mating or behavioral isolation was seen between the Llanos strain and the Orinocan strains. Later on Dobzhansky produced assortative mating (Dobzhansky 1972)."
same reference as above

(George Brooks) #19


And so exactly Why doesn’t polyploidy count? They are living creatures, right? They have DNA, right?

That’s like saying: Okay, make a miracle… but it has to be without God. Can you do it?

Since animals as different as Tigers and Lions can mate and produce a new and fertile generation … your requirement that there be absolutely complete reproductive isolation seems a bit arbitrary.

As long as a gradient of reproductive isolation is convincingly established, why would you doubt that eventually a given example, or even Lions vs. Tigers, would lead to a complete separation?

(George Brooks) #20


I think this fellow is cherry-picking… what’s the closest thing we have to matching his request?