There are three aspects to this problem which makes it particularly difficult, the scientific, the theological, and the philosophical. I have been blessed to master all, but I realize that this is quite unusual. You claimed that you are also equipped, but I fail to see it.
In any case I do not expect TE’s to be theologians, because they are primarily scientists. For them I have the science of ecological evolution. For the theologians I have Jesus as the Logos. For the philosophers like you I have the triune worldview.
None is an easy sell I know. All I can do is to sow the seeds and see what takes root. It has been only 100 years since Einstein published his papers on relativity. Sadly, the implications of relativity and quantum theory are poorly understood by scientists, philosophers, and theologians, but I do my best, even when people like you say that nothing has changed.
God hasn’t changed, but our understanding of God’s universe has, which means that we have too. Fortunately this new reality is closer to the way God is revealed in the NT (Triune vs Dualistic) so science brings us closer to God, rather than farther away. So why are you still fighting last century’s battles?
I can well see how scientists would object to a rather incomprehensible mess of terms, which has no defined relation to the mathematical clarity they have in parts of science. That would undermine science.
The truth is (evolutionary) creationism is a non-starter in science up untill the mathematics of how choosing works, the mechanism of creation, has been worked out.
What this involves among other things is:
conceiving of objects as consisting of the laws of nature, computing their own state, in stead of that the laws of nature just exist in science books
accepting mathematics as the theory of everything
accepting objects have anticipative and retarded aspects in regards to future and past, which are just as real as their present aspects
It’s just a lot of work which will take a long time to get results.
In the mean time creationists should just teach how choosing works as it is in common discourse. I find it really very troubling to see how kids and adults have no knowledge about how choosing works, and their conscience starts to dysfunction because of that.
According to you, Western theology is broken, so I really don’t know why you reject everything I suggest to make it better…
Brad has given us a topic, What is Nature? This is based on my statement. You don’t seem to agree, but you haven’t given a response as to what is Nature. Let us talk about the issues instead of making some ridiculous ad hominem comment.
This sounds discordant to me. Ecological evolution if true, is not just for scientists, no more than gravity is just for scientists, or paint is just for painters. Jesus is not Logos just for theologians, but for all christ-followers. And the trinity is not just for philosophers. Even a triune world-view is useless if it only applies to philosophers.
The real issue is whether TEéEC people can openly and vigorously advocate for design as they talk about evolution, or whether they would advocate that design is too well-hidden to be able to talk about it. To me the real issue seems to be whether God is a blind watchmaker, or whether he truly does sustain and maintain and direct. Can we truly pray to God for good weather for crops, for safe travelling on vacation, for healing, or is it just a waste of time, since God is powerless.
Studying evolution is a complete waste of time if it does not lead to a better understanding of the creator. No matter how much we learn, and how much longer we live, and how many diseases we conquer, it is all a waste of time if all it does is delay our meeting with a non-invasive maker.
You bring up the question of prayer. What is prayer? A laundry lest of what we want God to do for us, or a conversation where we ask guidance from God?
God gave us the power to fill the earth and subdue it, but we have refused to heed warnings not to pollute it which creates drought. In other words if humans are going to pray for rain, they need also to take actions necessary prevent climate change. We need to fulfill our share of the responsibility and not depend on God to clean up our messes.
It is not either God or humans/nature as Creationists and Atheists would have it. It is God and humans and nature working together than form Reality.
“Studying evolution is a complete waste of time if it does not lead to a better understanding of the creator.”
I agree and that is why I am critical of Darwinian evolution because it reinforces a false Nature/God view that Creationists, Darwinists, TEs, and IDers all use. Ecological evolution demonstrates how the Creator works in a Trinitarian manner, rather than a dualistic one.
This is the purpose of all my teaching, but one needs to begin were people are, which is usually based on their point view.
We need to understand that prayer is not primary for God, but for us, to enable us to prepare our hearts and minds for whatever God has prepared for us. God is not going to give us the desires of our hearts all the time, but God will never forsake or abandon us and that is all we really need.
Prayer is not laundry, nor mere conversation, although petitions and conversation are parts of it. The point is that if knock and the door shall be opened`` means anything, then it means that God can effect something. Jesus taught us to pray,thy will be done,…give us our daily bread…deliver us from evil…contrast this with a hypothetical prayer:we know you cant do anything about this weather, nor about our sickness, nor can you impact our daily provisions, nor can you deliver us from the evil that is merely part of our evolutionary genetic makeup... but here we are, stumbling around.We think you wont abandon us, but we dont see evidence of your presence… Sure wish you could do something.`
Which prayer is real, effective, relational, and scripturalÉ
What is nature? This is an excellent question, and should be expanded to include the question, “What is human nature?”
It is extraordinary that a concept such as undirected, chaotic, chance, and in short, an indefinable thing, should be considered as nature within the bio-paradigm of evolution (whichever version one chooses).
Yet when we consider human nature, (and the planet as representing the natural state), we humans (or are we a distinct species with our individual nature?) will change and modify anything we can, or are able - thus we can graft organs onto humans, and experiment with cloning and create cyborgs, but we will continue to argue that we do this for that and this purpose, while simultaneously some of us will believe Nature is without purpose or direction - a human trait.
Human agency and belief seem to be capable of many things that are unnatural in the scientific and naturalistic sense - I think if we consider these matters with sufficient depth, we will come to understand the importance of faith and wisdom that may enable us to provide a reasonable answer to the question of Nature and ourselves.
Seek the LORD, while He may be found. When we seek God through prayer, we do not ask God to give us what we want, but to give us what God needs us to have. God is able to help us with what we need when we put God’s Will first in our lives.
The question is not God’s power to help us, but our seeking God’s Will. Do not worry about tomorrow, but
Seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be given you. Mt 6:33
I really do not suggest that you ask God for good weather for an outing and then go out on that outing without consulting the weather report. Certainly if bad weather makes the outing impossible, despite the prayers, please do not blame God.
Yes, God is able to do all things, and yet God does not answer our prayers in the way that we want God to do. Is that because God is not able, or because knows better than we do.
Jesus prayed to be released from His obligation to die for our sins. That prayer was denied, but He also prayed that He might do the Will of the Father. The primary prayer in the Lord’s Prayer is
Thy Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Who is going to do God’s Will on earth, if not you and me? There is no point of praying the Lord’s Prayer if we have no intention of finding and doing God’s Will, but only seek God to do our will. We ask for help to do God’s Will, not that God help us to do what we want to do for ourselves.
Although I agree with what you have said here, I also think it misses the point of the question I was raising. Even if we ask that Gods will be done, we are making an assumption that Gods will is involved in what happens to us. This means that God is not unable to effect our situation, the conditions of our life. Even when Jesus prayed, Jesus knew that God could change the plan, but left the plan to God. If God is merely a blind watchmaker, watching to see what will happen to his creation, which he really did not directly effect other than the great initiation of it, then prayers about life, healing, weather are useless. Yet we know this is not so. Jesus commanded the storm to be still, healed the sick. His apostles also healed the sick, and some prophets raised people from the dead. Scientifically, this is impossible. Jesus answers our prayers according to his own plan and will, but the fact is that he promised that the prayers of faithful people were effective and sometimes miraculous.
@johnZ wrote:
“but the fact is that he promised that the prayers of faithful people were effective and sometimes miraculous.”
I would not argue with that, but because something is a fact does not make it a good argument.
We know that God is not a passive onlooker. That is part of why we seek to be a part of the process of God’s building God’s Kingdom. However we need to put the integrity of our witness first and foremost. That means that God’s Will comes first and ours comes second. Anything that indicates anything else is a bad witness.
We do not love Jesus because He answers our prayers and does what we want Him to do. We love Jesus because He loves us, shows that love through His care and support, which takes many forms. Communication between God and humans is by definition miraculous.